KotOR 2 - Video Game Villains

I consider Sauron a poor villain because he's just plain silly. "Bwahaha, I'm EEEVIIIL because I'm.. EEEVIL!".

To me, the perfect villain (ultimate villain) must be someone you can identify with, who has a certain level of depth and character. Any villain that's evil because they're evil is someone I automatically label "rubbish villain". Doesn't mean the story/characters other than that villain in the same universe are rubbish as well, of course, but I will simply never feel anything good or bad related to the main villain, which is a serious setback when trying to get emotionally involved in a good story.
 
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I consider Sauron a poor villain because he's just plain silly. "Bwahaha, I'm EEEVIIIL because I'm.. EEEVIL!".

I see what you mean, but the entire saga/mythology is like that.

Characters are black/white with very few exceptions, and he really made no bones about it.

So, you don't like LOTR at all?
 
Eh?

Never read the books I take it?

You mean the Silmarillion? LotR never explains why Sauron is evil, if I recall correctly. Even the excuses about Morgoth and the discord and what not are silly. I know a lot of LotR fanatics will call me a heathen for having this opinion, but I honestly think that particular part of the LotR history is all gibberish. It does nothing to help identify with Sauron or how he actually thinks.

I see what you mean, but the entire saga/mythology is like that.

Characters are black/white with very few exceptions, and he really made no bones about it.

So, you don't like LOTR at all?

I have to admit, LotR is not my favourite book, but I do enjoy it. There are many interesting scenes, locations, battles and so on. Character depth simply isn't a strength, so I can't get myself to call Sauron a great villain - everything in a great book is not automatically great as well.
 
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You mean the Silmarillion? LotR never explains why Sauron is evil, if I recall correctly. Even the excuses about Morgoth and the discord and what not are silly. I know a lot of LotR fanatics will call me a heathen for having this opinion, but I honestly think that particular part of the LotR history is all gibberish. It does nothing to help identify with Sauron or how he actually thinks.


You don't. ;)
 
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You mean the Silmarillion? LotR never explains why Sauron is evil, if I recall correctly. Even the excuses about Morgoth and the discord and what not are silly. I know a lot of LotR fanatics will call me a heathen for having this opinion, but I honestly think that particular part of the LotR history is all gibberish. It does nothing to help identify with Sauron or how he actually thinks.

We all have differing tastes - nothing wrong with that.

But I think you're looking for the wrong things in the wrong books. Tolkien was never about the depth of psychology and the causes for doing harmful things. He doesn't go into that at all, except for a few subtle nods with characters like Gollum which might be one of the only "nuanced" characters in the books.

Naturally, if you must have that kind of realism - it's quite understandable that you don't enjoy such fiction.

I love that stuff, myself, as long as it remains consistent - and doesn't try to be something that it's not. I think Tolkien managed that superbly and is one of the few writers I'd consider to be a true master.

I think that's because he wrote those books for himself, with a very clear vision and he didn't seem to deviate from that.

True art - in my opinion :)
 
You don't. ;)

Really? Care to enlighten me? The way I seem to recall it, there was something about everyone being created good originally, but then Melkor or Morgoth or whatever had a bad day and his tune didn't sound too great, so he became evil and corrupted Sauron into becoming evil too.

I thought this all happened prior to LotR. In LotR, Sauron is just the evil overlord who took command of the evil things of doom that Morgoth left behind. Or something similar. Insert lots of scheming and evil plotting inbetween where Sauron became corrupted and becoming the overlord of doom and destruction.

Edit: I might be wrong though, since it's been a while.

We all have differing tastes - nothing wrong with that.

But I think you're looking for the wrong things in the wrong books. Tolkien was never about the depth of psychology and the causes for doing harmful things. He doesn't go into that at all, except for a few subtle nods with characters like Gollum which might be one of the only "nuanced" characters in the books.

Naturally, if you must have that kind of realism - it's quite understandable that you don't enjoy such fiction.

I agree, which is why I defined my "ultimate villian" as a villian with a lot of depth and character. This is also why Sauron can never be my "ultimate villain". I'm simply looking for something entirely different when listing favourite villains.
 
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I thought this all happened prior to LotR. In LotR, Sauron is just the evil overlord who took command of the evil things of doom that Morgoth left behind. Or something similar. Insert lots of scheming and evil plotting inbetween where Sauron became corrupted and becoming the overlord of doom and destruction.


I wasn't referring to LotR, and I apologize for not being more specific. It's a bit more involved than your description of events. Rather than try to explain it in my words, I'll just quote a brief synopsis.


Entering Eä at the beginning of time, the Valar and Maiar tried to build and organise the world according to the will of Eru. Each of the Maia spirits was associated with one of the powerful Valar whom they served; for example, Ossë and Uinen, who were spirits of the sea, belonged to Ulmo, the Vala who was lord of the oceans. Sauron was prominent among the Maiar who served Aulë the Smith, the great craftsman of the Valar. As a result, Sauron came to possess great knowledge of the physical substances of the world, forging, and all manner of craftsmanship—emerging as “a great craftsman of the household of Aulë”. Sauron would always retain the "scientific" knowledge he derived from the great Vala of Craft: “In his beginning he was of the Maiar of Aulë, and he remained mighty in the lore of that people.” Sauron's original name was probably Mairon (the Admirable), but this name was changed to Sauron after he was suborned by Melkor. However, during the First Age Sauron continued to call himself Mairon.

Within the vast spaces of Eä, the Valar eventually concentrated their efforts on the realm of Arda, the Earth, where Elves and Men were destined to appear as the “Children of God.” But Melkor, who would later be known as Morgoth the Black Enemy, had also arrived in Arda. Fiercely desiring to become its supreme lord, he opposed the other Valar, who remained faithful to Eru and tried to carry out the Creator’s designs. Around this time, Sauron fell victim to Melkor’s corrupting influence: “In the beginning of Arda Melkor seduced him to his allegiance.”

As for Sauron's motives, Tolkien noted that "it had been his virtue (and therefore also the cause of his fall …) that he loved order and coordination, and disliked all confusion and wasteful friction." Thus "it was the apparent will and power of Melkor to effect his designs quickly and masterfully that had first attracted Sauron to him."

For a while, Sauron apparently kept up the pretence that he was a faithful servant of the Valar, all the while feeding Melkor information about their doings. Thus, when the Valar made Almaren as their first physical abode in the world, “Melkor knew of all that was done; for even then he had secret friends and spies among the Maiar whom he had converted to his cause, and of these the chief, as after became known, was Sauron.”

Almaren was destroyed by Melkor, and the Valar established a new abode in the Uttermost West: the Blessed Realm of Valinor. They still did not perceive Sauron’s dubious loyalties, for he too became “a being of Valinor”.

At some point, Sauron left the Blessed Realm and went to Middle-earth, the central continent of Arda. In one text, Tolkien wrote of Sauron that “in Valinor he had dwelt among the people of the gods, but there Morgoth had drawn him to evil and to his service”. It would seem that Sauron now definitely sided with Melkor. No longer just a spy and secret sympathizer, he deserted his service to the Valar and openly joined their great enemy: “Because of his admiration of Strength he had become a follower of Morgoth and fell with him down into the depths of evil.”
 
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You mean the Silmarillion? LotR never explains why Sauron is evil, if I recall correctly.

Sauron was never evil. Not evil in the "normal" sense of the words. He was even called "bringer of presents during the time when the Rings were made.

No, Sauron was not "evil" in the normal sense of the word. He just kind of acted like a youngster who was invited by a godfather into a "clan" of some sorts … He acted like kind of a groupie who was succumbed by the might and the power of the other one - of Morgoth.

This happens a thousands times a day … Just take a look at Mafia clans, or just at simple curruption. I give you a few bucks of money, you do this for me for that. And afterwards I'll call you a friend. If you happen to do other good work like this for me, you'll get what you want : Money, might, power, good looking girls …

This is kind of what happened to Sauron. He just believed it would be a good thing to work under the name - and for - Morgoth. Sauron probably loved the prospect of having might power and … well. So he just stayed.

In one novel or comic of the Star Wars universe, the Emperor is said to be one who seduces the people around him silently, very, very, very subtle. So[7i] subtle that the less intelligend don't even notice.

First, you send the Star Destroyer plus its inhabitants to missions "to restore order". Then, you send them to destroy an uprising. Next, you send them to destroy a Rebel base.

Read the book "People who knock on the door" by Patricia Highsmith, who shows very good, how subtle this kind of "corruption" can be. In steps, so tiny, one doesn't even notice.

Sauron was seduced and stayed. Then, as the owner of the castle of which he had only been the butler or the janitor was gone, he decided to make this his new home. So to say. Because after the war, they all fled, more or less. But Sauron was still the second most-powerful being of Morgoths realm - and he did nothing but take other the already existing structure(s).

So, this was not necessarily evil. He just did what he seemed to be fit - for his own reasons.

So, as a last note, it was the media of today who made Sauron that evil. I mean - as evil as he/she/it was depicted in the movies.
 
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I would say Kreia is one of the most memorable favorite video game characters to me, period. She's still not a great villain or antagonist though, just an interesting character in general.

Villains in games just tend to be too one dimensional and predictable.

The problem is that even when they're well written, being that games are an audio/visual media, the problem is usually not so much in the villain's characteristics or story themselves (though they are important) but in the voice acting.

Personally I quite liked Jon Irenicus cause he was always a good combination of someone who is Insane and someone who follows cold Logic. His backstory is quite tragic as well.

For instance, I found Irenicus' backstory quite compelling. I just couldn't get over the voice actor used. He didn't sound cold and ruthless or pained, he just sounded extremely bored.

I know it's nit picking, but I found it hard to like him, or hate him. I should have felt some compassion due to his tragic background but the voice actor voiced him like an arrogant prick. And backstory and motives aside, his dialogue wasn't all that well written either.

Anyway, voice acting rant aside, like I said, most villains/antagonists are too cookie cutter and predicable, as are protagonists. Bioware has made this more plain with every game released since. Now I'm not singling them out it's just that the games since have lacked in gameplay but are usually praised for story/characters but Kotor II and MoTB's characters were far more interesting.

So I can't recall a Villian that I really "loved to hate" in a PC RPG.

But then you have Kefka of Final Fantasy fame. I know, cutesie little sprite, cheesy 16 bit RPG dialogue. But his actions made your jaw drop. Talk about evil!

And that sinister laugh… "MWAHAHAHAHA"… MAKE IT STOP…. it still gives me chills… brrrrrrr :)
 
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I also found the antagonists in Morrowind quite interesting, especially Almalexia.
 
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I've been playing KotOR 2 recently, and I can't fathom your love for this Kreia character.

She's one of the most shortsighted persons I've yet to come across, constantly lecturing me about the downsides of assisting people - though it's plain as day that I have to assist them to get nearer the ultimate goal - and that it has little to do with being "goodie-goodie". I know that's a kind of weakness of the game structure - but I can't possibly take a character seriously who's that stupid.

Now, I've only done ~50% of the game - so I don't know what big reveal awaits, but her being a villain was certainly not going to be a surprise. I'm expecting a "grey area" villian as pr. Obsidian standards.

Recently, Morrigan had the same problem to a lesser extent - going on and on about not helping when we should be focusing on the main goal. The problem, again, is that the main goal is tied into helping these people directly. It's just annoying that they can't do better with characters.

Maybe it's my own problem for being a pragmatic bastard, but I REALLY don't need lessons in whether to be "good" or "evil" when I don't think those concepts even make sense.

Sigh.

But about Kreia - she seemed to suffer from the same disease so many of Obsidian characters suffer from, namely being needlessly obscure and "mysterious" veiling that they're really not deeper or more profound than anyone else, they just have a really hard time owning up to it.
 
Heh. Kreia will also lecture you if you're mindlessly eeeeevil too. It's basically Ravel Puzzlewell again- it isn't important what the answer is so much as that it is your answer and not something forced on you by what might loosely be termed Star Wars' dualist narrative imperative. Which fits very well with her ultimate motivation.
 
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