Fallout 4 - Base Customization @ Gamespot

MigRib · July 29, 2015

BoboTheMighty said:
You really need to visit New Reno, more often. That's all I'm saying.

I've never been in the US man, all that 50s Americana looks the same to me!

Archangel · July 30, 2015

MigRib said:
Not having the brain power enough to register on a forum means someone had severe brain damage or is illiterate. You have to tell me where do you find those brain damaged or illiterate Bethesda costumers if not on Internet foruns. Someone organizes cons for those guys to scream and beat at each other with clubs?

Go check out CoD players and similar kiddies.

ChienAboyeur · July 30, 2015

Playing CoD requires more skills than the average socalled RPG.

MigRib · July 30, 2015

Archangel said:
Go check out CoD players and similar kiddies.

I knew that you were talking about kids. The people that react the way you described are mostly kids (but I'm pretty sure they can log into a forum). But are those Fallout fans? CoD fans maybe, Fallout probabably not. Of course that if there's a gun to be used they can happily play it. Still that does not make Fallout 4 dumbed down.
And on the topic of dumbing down… Are you really sure that your opinions are really your own? I mean, of course you believe them, but are you quite sure you weren't influenced by numerous critics and hardcore fans of retro RPGs?
I'm always reading opinions very similar to yours, in this forum and in plenty others. But I rarely see someone taking the time to deconstruct the argument that these newer games were not realy dumbed down, they were adapted to a different reality, different technology and different customers than those of the 90s (and yes, this includes the dumb ones, and also the ones that had time to indulge in management and accounting and reading walls of poorly written text while playing a game but are now adults and would rather delve into a open world and experience some real immersion rather than plan tactics to kill a couple of ogres with a party composed of a warrior, a thief, a magician and a cleric).
I know that my opinions are my own. On the one side not much people say out loud exactly the same thing I do (at least as far as I know, because they may be in hidding), on the other side I only started to play cRPG when I stopped playing P&P (about 4 years ago). I usually found attempts to adapt P&P to cRPG too close to what a typical D&D campaign looks like, and that was never what I meant to play. Four years ago I suddenly had a lot of time in my hands, and took the time to discover that there were a few games that tried to adapt P&P another way, the way I liked (they were already around a long ago, of course, and I knew a few of those, like VtM Bloodlines, but then I had time for just one hobby and I would rather play P&P). So, that's why I know that my opinion is my own and wasn't deformed by what others think. My opinion was, in fact, formed while playing Fallout 3 and New Vegas. I loved them, and still do.
And then, all of a sudden, small time devs started crowdfunding cRPGs, and, of course, went for the option that was more easily funded, retro old-school games. And a lot of people rejoiced. And a lot of critics rejoiced. And a lot of those games were on pedestals before even being made. And you couldn't say something negative about them and about the games they were trying to emulate without a choir of voices repeating the same words "these are the True RPGs, blessed by the Light of Good Ole' Role Playing, you are a Dumbed Down Console Kiddie Heretic". And you had to confront these people on their own terms because they were, and still are, absolutely sure that they hold the One and Only Truth.
Fact is I'm a bit tired of it, and gave up discussing things on their terms. No, they don't hold the One and Only Truth. They (you) would rather play Baldur's Gate, Planescape Torment and the original Fallout and their newer clones for the rest of your life? Fine, they are, in their own way, great RPGs. At least the paved the way to other things. I don't want to. I never liked those games when they were new, there's no reason to like them now they are old. No reason to like their newer, better looking spiritual successors. I have other preferences. Am I dumb because I would rather play Deus Ex: Mankind Divided or the next Mass Effect instead of an hipotetical Wasteland 3? I don't care. Dub me dumb. I will still be playing what I like, with the certainty that I wasn't caught in the web of another fad.

Archangel · July 30, 2015

ChienAboyeur said:
Playing CoD requires more skills than the average socalled RPG.

Not brain skills, that is why they are called braindead

I played a lot of FPS when I was younger, I know exactly how much it takes and it is not much.

Archangel · July 30, 2015

MigRib said:
I knew that you were talking about kids. The people that react the way you described are mostly kids (but I'm pretty sure they can log into a forum). But are those Fallout fans? CoD fans maybe, Fallout probabably not. Of course that if there's a gun to be used they can happily play it. Still that does not make Fallout 4 dumbed down.
And on the topic of dumbing down… Are you really sure that your opinions are really your own? I mean, of course you believe them, but are you quite sure you weren't influenced by numerous critics and hardcore fans of retro RPGs?
I'm always reading opinions very similar to yours, in this forum and in plenty others. But I rarely see someone taking the time to deconstruct the argument that these newer games were not realy dumbed down, they were adapted to a different reality, different technology and different customers than those of the 90s (and yes, this includes the dumb ones, and also the ones that had time to indulge in management and accounting and reading walls of poorly written text while playing a game but are now adults and would rather delve into a open world and experience some real immersion rather than plan tactics to kill a couple of ogres with a party composed of a warrior, a thief, a magician and a cleric).
I know that my opinions are my own. On the one side not much people say out loud exactly the same thing I do (at least as far as I know, because they may be in hidding), on the other side I only started to play cRPG when I stopped playing P&P (about 4 years ago). I usually found attempts to adapt P&P to cRPG too close to what a typical D&D campaign looks like, and that was never what I meant to play. Four years ago I suddenly had a lot of time in my hands, and took the time to discover that there were a few games that tried to adapt P&P another way, the way I liked (they were already around a long ago, of course, and I knew a few of those, like VtM Bloodlines, but then I had time for just one hobby and I would rather play P&P). So, that's why I know that my opinion is my own and wasn't deformed by what others think. My opinion was, in fact, formed while playing Fallout 3 and New Vegas. I loved them, and still do.
And then, all of a sudden, small time devs started crowdfunding cRPGs, and, of course, went for the option that was more easily funded, retro old-school games. And a lot of people rejoiced. And a lot of critics rejoiced. And a lot of those games were on pedestals before even being made. And you couldn't say something negative about them and about the games they were trying to emulate without a choir of voices repeating the same words "these are the True RPGs, blessed by the Light of Good Ole' Role Playing, you are a Dumbed Down Console Kiddie Heretic". And you had to confront these people on their own terms because they were, and still are, absolutely sure that they hold the One and Only Truth.
Fact is I'm a bit tired of it, and gave up discussing things on their terms. No, they don't hold the One and Only Truth. They (you) would rather play Baldur's Gate, Planescape Torment and the original Fallout and their newer clones for the rest of your life? Fine, they are, in their own way, great RPGs. At least the paved the way to other things. I don't want to. I never liked those games when they were new, there's no reason to like them now they are old. No reason to like their newer, better looking spiritual successors. I have other preferences. Am I dumb because I would rather play Deus Ex: Mankind Divided or the next Mass Effect instead of an hipotetical Wasteland 3? I don't care. Dub me dumb. I will still be playing what I like, with the certainty that I wasn't caught in the web of another fad.

All this rant because you are angry that a group of older people don't like games made for younger people. Why?
Go play what you want and be happy and leave us disgruntled fellows in our "Get off the lawn!" sorrow of days that passed.
I don't understand what is so great in Fallout 3 (played it for 1 hour and FNV for 15h) and you don't understand why we love so much Fallout 1 and 2. Lets leave it at that.
I will keep on bashing new versions and you can keep on praising them and bashing old ones and both will continue to exist.
I really don't care what people think about F3 or F2 as long I can keep playing new games in the vein of old ones and with KS I can.

MigRib · July 30, 2015

Archangel said:
All this rant because you are angry that a group of older people don't like games made for younger people. Why?
Go play what you want and be happy and leave us disgruntled fellows in our "Get off the lawn!" sorrow of days that passed.
I don't understand what is so great in Fallout 3 (played it for 1 hour and FNV for 15h) and you don't understand why we love so much Fallout 1 and 2. Lets leave it at that.
I will keep on bashing new versions and you can keep on praising them and bashing old ones and both will continue to exist.
I really don't care what people think about F3 or F2 as long I can keep playing new games in the vein of old ones and with KS I can.

This was not a rant, it was an explanation. Just because it has many lines does not mean that I am cursing you and your entire family. Anyway, it was not a rant and you got it all wrong, congrats!
First of all, I am certainly not one of the "younger people", I'm closer to the "older people". When Fallout 1 was launched I was already too old and too busy to even know that it existed.
You don't understand what is so great about Fallout 3 and one of the main reasons is plain and clear: YOU PLAYED IT FOR AN HOUR! If I said the same about any retro game I would've been smashed against a wall with sarcasm. But as long as you say it just about those darn' Bethesda's games nobody minds. Those games were made for braindead people anyway...
On the other hand I do understand what you find great in the classics. They are just not my kind of thing. If it appears that I'm bashing on them it's because everybody who likes that kind of game does bash on games like Fallout 3, Mass Effect and everything on the same vein.
So, you can be sure that I will keep playing waht I like, as I am sure that you will be playing what you like. And I have no problem with that, as long as the games I like are still being made. And it appears so.

Archangel · July 30, 2015

Yes I played F3 for 1 hour, but people said FNV is much better and I could only stand it for 15h and I really tried to like it. I also played Oblivion for up to 10h and I played Skyrim for 25+ hours. I also played Morrowind for around 30h so I know very well how Bethesda games play. And Fallout 3 played just like those before it and I could not stand it.
After Skyrim and my experience in FNV I have a working brain and I know Fallout 4 is just going to be more of the same crap.
I know FNV is made by Obsidian, but they could not fix the base engine and game made by Bethesda, they just tried to put chocolate on a turd.

MigRib · July 30, 2015

Archangel said:
Yes I played F3 for 1 hour, but people said FNV is much better and I could only stand it for 15h and I really tried to like it. I also played Oblivion for up to 10h and I played Skyrim for 25+ hours. I also played Morrowind for around 30h so I know very well how Bethesda games play. And Fallout 3 played just like those before it and I could not stand it.
After Skyrim and my experience in FNV I have a working brain and I know Fallout 4 is just going to be more of the same crap.
I know FNV is made by Obsidian, but they could not fix the base engine and game made by Bethesda, they just tried to put chocolate on a turd.

OK, so this post just proves that I lost a lot of minutes trying to have a discussion with you without getting anywhere. As (almost) always happens when I try to engage in a conversation about games and the other person has that irrational hatred of everything Bethesda (and probably everything BioWare). Describing a game that so much people like as a "turd" is where I draw the line. I think we are done here. I suppose you feel the same.

BoboTheMighty · July 30, 2015

Eh...don't try to argue with these dinosaurs. I bet some of them still ride around on horses and carry bucket around when it's about to rain.

Archangel · July 30, 2015

MigRib said:
OK, so this post just proves that I lost a lot of minutes trying to have a discussion with you without getting anywhere. As (almost) always happens when I try to engage in a conversation about games and the other person has that irrational hatred of everything Bethesda (and probably everything BioWare). Describing a game that so much people like as a "turd" is where I draw the line. I think we are done here. I suppose you feel the same.

If you purpose is to enlighten me and others like me than you have wasted both your and my time. I know that is not possible or it is so rare it might as well be a search for the holy grail kind of quest.
If you just enjoy discussing things like I do, then it is not a waste

Actually I got what I want in finally explaining to you that you cannot change other people opinions, at best you can reach a state where you understand why they might feel the way they feel.
Also that little jab "irrational hatred", I love that. Like using hipster last time

But it would be more productive if you kept those words for the products and not the people you are talking to.

MigRib · July 30, 2015

Archangel said:
If you purpose is to enlighten me and others like me than you have wasted both your and my time. I know that is not possible or it is so rare it might as well be a search for the holy grail kind of quest.
If you just enjoy discussing things like I do, then it is not a waste
Actually I got what I want in finally explaining to you that you cannot change other people opinions, at best you can reach a state where you understand why they might feel the way they feel.
Also that little jab "irrational hatred", I love that. Like using hipster last time
But it would be more productive if you kept those words for the products and not the people you are talking to.

No, my purpose is not to enlighten anyone. I guess you have been paying too much attention to details so you can attack my posts the rethorical way. As I said before I do not care what you like, and I don't care that you do not have the same tastes as I do. I just find it weird that there are always two scales in these discussions. If you like the classics, then you are RIGHT. If you do not, then you are wrong. And in this case I am WRONG. And dumb and braindead.

You did not get what you wanted because I did not want to change your opinion about anything. I was only trying to exercise my right to freedom of expression by telling you that, although you are certain that you are RIGHT, there is, in fact, no RIGHT and WRONG here, just a matter of taste. So you can get off your high horse and stop paternalizing me. I'm 40 years old, I think I'm old enough not to be paternalized by you (unless you are over 70, in that case you are allowed).

Products can't have an irrational hatred, because they are objects, and objects don't have feelings. Maybe the other word (hipster) can be used when talking about products. I'll try to do that more often.

Finally, thank you for your kindness in pointing my mistakes and trying to get me on the correct path, but (again) you got it all wrong, I do not want your guidance.
Well, I think I'll even end in a paternalist note, so we can speak the same language after all: try to pay more attention to what people write on their posts, and less time thinking how you might use their words against them. These rethotical skirmishes are so boring...

ChienAboyeur · July 30, 2015

Archangel said:
Not brain skills, that is why they are called braindead
I played a lot of FPS when I was younger, I know exactly how much it takes and it is not much.

The comment does not distinguish between brain skills and the others.
So, yes, FPS require more brain skills than the average socalled RPGs...

Archangel said:
All this rant because you are angry that a group of older people don't like games made for younger people. Why?

Wich games are made for younger people?
Actually, following the trend of comments, it is safe to tell that Fall Out 4 meets the specifications as a game made for older people.

Demanding games do not target older players, they target younger people who have the required time to commit themselves to learn the ins and outs, older players are short of time.
Any hint of simplification is not intended to satisfy younger players but older players.

Of course, this is only when following the trend of comments, as Fall Out 4 is not simplified. Devs are either following their developpment course they set years ago or admitted the shortcomings of some means they used and are trying to reach their goal, using other means.

MigRib · July 30, 2015

ChienAboyeur said:
Demanding games do not target older players, they target younger people who have the required time to commit themselves to learn the ins and outs, older players are short of time.

Although some older players still want to play the games that remind them of what they played in their teenage years.

Archangel · July 30, 2015

MigRib said:
No, my purpose is not to enlighten anyone. I guess you have been paying too much attention to details so you can attack my posts the rethorical way. As I said before I do not care what you like, and I don't care that you do not have the same tastes as I do. I just find it weird that there are always two scales in these discussions. If you like the classics, then you are RIGHT. If you do not, then you are wrong. And in this case I am WRONG. And dumb and braindead.

That is how your posts sounded to me. Only thing I missed/misread is the part at the bottom where you said same as me about only caring that games you play are being made. But I still got different feeling from you since you keep writing these posts and calling out the people that bash different new games. Who does that unless they are trying to change people's opinion?
And I never called you dumb or braindead. You are not average Bethesda public, you are the fringe cases that still enjoy their games and you are a huge minority.
Skyrim sold 8 million copies or more. Since Baldur's Gate sold 2-3 million and older people are dying not being born (or don't play games any more) I can safely say most of those 8 million are kiddies.

You did not get what you wanted because I did not want to change your opinion about anything. I was only trying to exercise my right to freedom of expression by telling you that, although you are certain that you are RIGHT, there is, in fact, no RIGHT and WRONG here, just a matter of taste. So you can get off your high horse and stop paternalizing me. I'm 40 years old, I think I'm old enough not to be paternalized by you (unless you are over 70, in that case you are allowed).

You exercised your right to tell me I am WRONG, that is what it comes down to. That also falls into trying to change other people opinions.

Products can't have an irrational hatred, because they are objects, and objects don't have feelings. Maybe the other word (hipster) can be used when talking about products. I'll try to do that more often.

So use different derogatory terms for those products. Let me give you one: turd. It works well, use it. The ones you use are meant for people, and in this case for me and people like me.
I called Fallout 4 and other Bethesda games turds and I called average Bethesda customer braindead kiddies, not you. I never gave any derogatory term to you.

Finally, thank you for your kindness in pointing my mistakes and trying to get me on the correct path, but (again) you got it all wrong, I do not want your guidance.
Well, I think I'll even end in a paternalist note, so we can speak the same language after all: try to pay more attention to what people write on their posts, and less time thinking how you might use their words against them. These rethotical skirmishes are so boring…

Sarcasm now.. and the rest, well at least you are learning to use rhetoric after bashing me for using it. As they say, if you cannot beat them, join them. Have fun.

MigRib · July 30, 2015

Archangel said:
That is how your posts sounded to me. Only thing I missed/misread is the part at the bottom where you said same as me about only caring that games you play are being made. But I still got different feeling from you since you keep writing these posts and calling out the people that bash different new games. Who does that unless they are trying to change people's opinion?

Being annoyed by your bashing on the kind of games I like and writing about it means I want to change your opinion? To you it might seem so, but it isn't. If I wanted to change your opinion I would be looking through your posts for something to nitpick about and then "explaining" why you are wrong on all accounts. As I said before I don't think you are wrong for liking the games that you have fun with. I don't even think it's wrong to call any game a "turd", I'm not a moralist. But if you call a game I like a turd, I might as well ask why do you think your opinion is better than mine.

Archangel said:
And I never called you dumb or braindead. You are not average Bethesda public, you are the fringe cases that still enjoy their games and you are a huge minority.

I know you didn't. I was joking about that. Maybe you are right, maybe Bethesda's clients are mostly stupid kids. Bethesda's, EA's, Obsidian's, SEGA's, Square Enix's, Rockstar Games's, Ubisoft's, I suppose their fan base is almost the same, kids. If kids nowadays are as stupid as you say, then it makes no difference which company you are talking about. And observing the average user of other foruns about cRPG there are a lot of moron adults too (in this one also, but no as much, that's why I even bother coming here).

You exercised your right to tell me I am WRONG, that is what it comes down to. That also falls into trying to change other people opinions.

Archangel said:
So use different derogatory terms for those products. Let me give you one: turd. It works well, use it. The ones you use are meant for people, and in this case for me and people like me.
I called Fallout 4 and other Bethesda games turds and I called average Bethesda customer braindead kiddies, not you. I never gave any derogatory term to you.

Do you really think that hipster is a derrogatory term? I don't see it like that. If not hipster I don't recall insulting in any way. And even "hipster" wasn't directed to you, I applied it to no one in particular.

Archangel said:
Sarcasm now.. and the rest, well at least you are learning to use rhetoric after bashing me for using it. As they say, if you cannot beat them, join them. Have fun.

I won't have fun. I do hate rethorical arguments.

Archangel · July 30, 2015

MigRib said:
Being annoyed by your bashing on the kind of games I like and writing about it means I want to change your opinion? To you it might seem so, but it isn't. If I wanted to change your opinion I would be looking through your posts for something to nitpick about and then "explaining" why you are wrong on all accounts. As I said before I don't think you are wrong for liking the games that you have fun with. I don't even think it's wrong to call any game a "turd", I'm not a moralist. But if you call a game I like a turd, I might as well ask why do you think your opinion is better than mine.

You are complaining about people complaining about modern games, that comes down to attacking the people and that is trying to change them. Attacking someone directly always only has one real purpose.
When I call average Bethesda players braindead I do want to have them all stop being such but since I am not talking to them I don't care about not using such terms. Talking to them directly is pointless as you cannot really change their opinions and they cannot even have civil conversations.
When I call a game a turd, that has nothing to do with you. If you choose to feel offended that is not my problem.

I know you didn't. I was joking about that. Maybe you are right, maybe Bethesda's clients are mostly stupid kids. Bethesda's, EA's, Obsidian's, SEGA's, Square Enix's, Rockstar Games's, Ubisoft's, I suppose their fan base is almost the same, kids. If kids nowadays are as stupid as you say, then it makes no difference which company you are talking about. And observing the average user of other foruns about cRPG there are a lot of moron adults too (in this one also, but no as much, that's why I even bother coming here).

I said braindead, not stupid. Stupid for me relates to much more in life, although probably a good portion of those players are stupid.
I doubt anyone is a moron, those can barely learn to use a computer. Maybe those only play on consoles

Do you really think that hipster is a derrogatory term? I don't see it like that. If not hipster I don't recall insulting in any way. And even "hipster" wasn't directed to you, I applied it to no one in particular.

It is often used as such today. On many places along with neckbears, grognards and other terms. Nerd and geek stopped being what they were so the "cool" kids had to find new ones.

MigRib · July 30, 2015

Archangel said:
You are complaining about people complaining about modern games, that comes down to attacking the people and that is trying to change them. Attacking someone directly always only has one real purpose.

Well, for you it might only have that purpose, but not for me. When I see a post that criticizes heavily something I like sometimes I react by replying. When I say criticizes hevaily I mean something like "it's dumbed down" or it was made for those "brainless kids". If you had just said that you don't like Fallout 3 or NV and would never buy Fallout 4, I wouldn't care a bit about that. So, I don't want to change your mind, I leave that to Bethesda's marketing people.

Archangel said:
When I call a game a turd, that has nothing to do with you. If you choose to feel offended that is not my problem.

Not offended. Just what I wrote above.

Archangel said:
It is often used as such today. On many places along with neckbears, grognards and other terms. Nerd and geek stopped being what they were so the "cool" kids had to find new ones.

Where I live it is also used as a way to make fun of someone or something, but I wouldn't go so far as to call it a derrogatory term. Not as strong as geek or nerd for example. Anyway, I used in a general way, to imply people who like to be anti-mainstream.

crpgnut · July 30, 2015

TL;DR

Well this 51 year old Bethesda fan is ready for the next wonderful offering from them. I'm sure there are more intelligent people on the forum than myself, but I could care less

I just put tape on my knuckles so I don't get splinters from the floor.

MigRib · July 30, 2015

crpgnut said:
TL;DR

Well this 51 year old Bethesda fan is ready for the next wonderful offering from them. I'm sure there are more intelligent people on the forum than myself, but I could care less I just put tape on my knuckles so I don't get splinters from the floor.

I'm glad I'm not the oldest Bethesda fan around here. I was affraid future Boston would be overrun by braindead kids.

Fallout 4 - Base Customization @ Gamespot

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