BoboTheMighty
SasqWatch
Ever since I was a boy, I always dreamed of owning a golden castle. But I sure as hell wouldn't pay 30K for it. 
Shroud of the Avatar - Golden Castle for 30K
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GothicGothicness
SasqWatch
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Ever since I was a boy, I always dreamed of owning a golden castle. But I sure as hell wouldn't pay 30K for it.
You forget to mention "virtual"
You'd be pretty stupid not to pay 30K for a real golden castle.....- Joined
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Vindicator
Primordial Dragon
Forget the golden castle, I have a better idea…
All Ultima fans should contribute $30K to send Garriott on a one-way trip to the moon.
All Ultima fans should contribute $30K to send Garriott on a one-way trip to the moon.
I guess his blood sale didn't make enough. What a joke. Can't believe people still support this person but then again perhaps this is the best game ever and I just don't know what I am missing.
Gamespot has an interesting video article about Arkane studios that has quite a bit of footage interviewing Richard Garriott. I recommend it to anyone who enjoys inside stories and cRPG history.
As it relates to this thread, on video 2 of 3, around the 7 minute 18 second mark, Garriott makes the remark, "… I've done really well in gaming, but I've blown it all on space." I've always had a hunch that his fortunes greatly diminished because of his pursuit of going to space, but I think he's probably far more broke than anyone might think.
The behavior of Portalarium as it relates to all matters of money has always had a vibe of desperation to me… along with an infomercial vibe of, "but wait, there's more!" I've heard many times people comment that Richard ought to "put his own money" into SoTA. But maybe he doesn't have money to spare these days.
As it relates to this thread, on video 2 of 3, around the 7 minute 18 second mark, Garriott makes the remark, "… I've done really well in gaming, but I've blown it all on space." I've always had a hunch that his fortunes greatly diminished because of his pursuit of going to space, but I think he's probably far more broke than anyone might think.
The behavior of Portalarium as it relates to all matters of money has always had a vibe of desperation to me… along with an infomercial vibe of, "but wait, there's more!" I've heard many times people comment that Richard ought to "put his own money" into SoTA. But maybe he doesn't have money to spare these days.
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NewDArt
Guest
The thing that I really, really don't understand is how any team working for so long with a decent amount of resources can't do better than Shroud of the Avatar.
I mean, even if it's a deliberate scam (which I highly doubt) - there's still a lot of work involved. Assets don't make themselves and code doesn't write itself.
So, there are people working hard on the game.
But, seriously, it's REALLY bad in almost every way. It looks terrible, it performs terribly and it plays worst of all. It's almost like someone was trying to break some kind of record of obscene mediocrity.
How the hell does that happen?
I mean, even if it's a deliberate scam (which I highly doubt) - there's still a lot of work involved. Assets don't make themselves and code doesn't write itself.
So, there are people working hard on the game.
But, seriously, it's REALLY bad in almost every way. It looks terrible, it performs terribly and it plays worst of all. It's almost like someone was trying to break some kind of record of obscene mediocrity.
How the hell does that happen?
Hmmm, It Just Happens (tm).
I've been involved in a few big disasters (and had my share in a lot of successful ones, for the record), so my personal experience is this:
1. game starts with ambition over the roof
2. team is over-excited, daily mantra: WE'LL F*CK THE WORLD WITH THE BEST GAME EVER.
3. reality kicks in: what is good on paper, stinks in execution
4. re-design starts
5. deadlines start to slip
6. producers get angry
7. overall frustrations all over the team, management issues
8. team receives final deadline ultimatum from producers/publishers
9. daily mantra: FINISH THE F*CKIN' THING SOMEHOW AND FORGET IT.
Mind you, this happened with an experienced team, full of pro's.
Now imagine the same thing with a team of newbie millenials, plus a veteran who has been out of groove for years -- whooohooo! Gotta love crisis management!
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NewDArt
Guest
It's one thing not to be able to finish stuff or meet deadlines. It's also common to be over-ambitious. We've seen plenty of that.
But it's rare that we see such experienced leadership behind such a terrible, terrible example of absolutely nothing of note.
Most games have SOMETHING interesting - even if they fail in all other ways.
This game literally has nothing that has made any kind of positive impression on me. Most of it is just straight-up bad - and the rest is painfully dull and mediocre.
In this case, it's also a very public project - meaning that everything about it is visible to the people who've invested money in it.
So, they can't exactly pretend they're doing something special and be very convincing about it.
To me, it's really a riddle of some proportion.
But it's rare that we see such experienced leadership behind such a terrible, terrible example of absolutely nothing of note.
Most games have SOMETHING interesting - even if they fail in all other ways.
This game literally has nothing that has made any kind of positive impression on me. Most of it is just straight-up bad - and the rest is painfully dull and mediocre.
In this case, it's also a very public project - meaning that everything about it is visible to the people who've invested money in it.
So, they can't exactly pretend they're doing something special and be very convincing about it.
To me, it's really a riddle of some proportion.
Yup, you are right, and it is a good time to wrap up why the original Ulimas were so good (in no particular order):
1. Focused market (D&D fans, fantasy buffs) - this is not applicable nowadays, market is extremely saturated (see my rants on the hardcore RPG decline). I guess Garriott is aware of this, hence the re-position of Shroud into MMO.
2. Excellent world building - this might be applicable for Shroud, BUT: I think Garriott knows that lore solely based on virtue is ridiculous nowadays, so what else he has? We'll see.
3. Innovative gameplay (interaction, NPCs, non-linearity, etc) - this is risky for today's mass market Shroud is aiming at. I think Garriott wants to streamline old RPG staples somehow, not unlike Fable did a few years ago. The result was a fun game, but definitely not an RPG as we like to see.
4. Celebrity power (Lord British) - this is unapplicable today. Aside from us, no one knows who Lord British is (was). If only Kim Kardashian would be involved in somehow….
5. Cutting edge technology (new engine, etc) - this is unacceptable now. You have Unity, Unreal, etc for a good reason. I think Garriott knows this, hence his obsession on content creation.
6. Epic Content (big worlds, lotsa things to do, etc) - this might be valid for Shroud, as it inherits from the MMO design template.
Problem is, that the content is currently just a huge library of generic props (houses, etc), and… nothing else so far.
… so, we have two semi-valid items on the list (2,6), which is quite bad for the Ultima reboot we're hoping for.
I agree, right now Shroud is a gamble. However, we have seen this gamble with much better results: Star Citizen.
I think Garriott, with all due respect, simply tries to mimic Robert's business model, with a far worse result as of today.
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GuybrushWilco
Pirate Janitor
Why do Kickstarter games run out of money so often? It looks like the publisher model really does have some merit in keeping undisciplined developers on track and from over scoping, forcing them to meet deadlines, etc. I think many game developers may be talented and creative, but just are not good at the business side of things.
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NewDArt
Guest
The publisher model is fine if you want a game that's made to sell before it's made to be a great game.
Lots of great games can come from that, there's just no reason to expect much in the way of innovation or risk-taking - which is why it's rare
There's no business model that can guarentee a creative masterpiece. So, if you're looking for a creative masterpiece - you can either stop looking (publisher model) - or you can take a chance (crowdfunded).
Ok, once in a blue moon you DO get the creative masterpiece through the publisher model - but we all know that's extremely rare and not something the suits will ever start funding on a regular basis.
GuybrushWilco
Pirate Janitor
The publisher model is fine if you want a game that's made to sell before it's made to be a great game.
Lots of great games can come from that, there's just no reason to expect much in the way of innovation or risk-taking - which is why it's rare
There's no business model that can guarentee a creative masterpiece. So, if you're looking for a creative masterpiece - you can either stop looking (publisher model) - or you can take a chance (crowdfunded).
Ok, once in a blue moon you DO get the creative masterpiece through the publisher model - but we all know that's extremely rare and not something the suits will ever start funding on a regular basis.
I see what you're saying, but it just seems like a lot of developers really only get things done if they have someone cracking the whip on them. The game developers can be the most creative and talented people in the world in terms of design, writing, art, programming, etc. but if they don't know how to manage finances and keep the game within a realistic scope, and on budget, it's still going to be a disaster.
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NewDArt
Guest
A lot of developers don't even get games done on time when there's a whip involved
That said, the vast majority of the games I've backed have come out alright. Not necessarily exactly as I hoped - but they were eventually released and have almost all been worth the money.
So, I'm not seeing the big issue.
For SotA - I knew it would be taking a risk - but I didn't back it through the Kickstarter - but through Early Access. The same thing, essentially, but there it is.
But even the most talented developers with the greatest vision can't magically create a masterpiece. It takes a lot of work - and it's all but impossible to break new ground without taking a bunch of risks - and that means there will ALWAYS be delays - and almost always significant delays.
Some people don't understand how unpredictable and hard it is to break new ground when developing games - so they will naturally complain more.
But reality doesn't really change because of that. It's all about whether you're willing to take a risk and be patient.
If not, then I strongly advise not investing at all.
Ahem... Being a Company Dark Lord for ages, I tend to agree....
Creative people often deliver their best output under pressure. This does not mean that I have to poke'em with a taser on a daily basis, but a little tension definitely helps on any project.
My personal explanation is that the pressure disallows them to wander off, so they remain focused (which is the greatest evil for creativity -- yes, it is a contradiction)
As far as I see, the current Kickstarter projects are mostly formed by inexperienced millenials (or Z's), who...
- are inexperienced to run a longer project (planning, managing, etc),
- have no discipline to gracefully f*ck up a project (tm) and boldly recover.
The latter is extremely important, they just abandon it and start something else from scratch...
... which is a shame, because this way they'll never learn the Hard Facts of Life.
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Often? Which ones exactly?
I can't remember any project I backed had such problem (although should recheck the list of titles on KS).
Just stop backing outright suspicious projects. Decide for yourself which ones are those.
Me? I refuse to back products for mushrooms (sadly one passed through my criteria as it wasn't stated in the project, is the only KS disappointment for me so far - Earthlock), grinders, MMOs, phoneware and DLC milking plans.
Note that sometimes I'm too paranoic, the recent example is Regalia. I didn't back it's KS project (can't remember exactly why), but it turned into a surprisingly good indie, I dare to sayso far one of the best games in this year.
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You have to remember that a good number if publisher games are cancelled. I think I read somewhere that about 33% of publisher backed computer games actually get to the marketplace, the others are cancelled. SotA is a perfect example why that is the case.
True. Understandably, many developers like to work on their favorite elements of a project, and some can obsess over little details that don't provide much value. It's management's responsibility to plan out the big picture out and then make sure the focus is on the right aspects for the right amount of effort, while keeping the crew happy and engaged. Not sure I'd call that cracking the whip -- it's more like good resource management. It's easy for things to get off track, especially if management isn't flexible or insightful enough.
Great post and I fully agree. Although, what irks me most about SotA is that it straight up looks like a scam. I don't blame emplyees, but certainly management.
It starts with selling masses of useless vanity items and useful (read unfair) advantages like real estate and shops that tend to make the game unfun for many players.
Also, many of the props are user made or from free libraries and in the (infamous) case of one particular horse statue are even sold back to the community. This is straight up unethical imo.
And then asking for even more money!? Garriott knew he couldn't do another Kickstarter or the shitstorm would become a hurricane. So he went and made it an investment opportunity. It is supposed to be the chance of a lifetime, when you read the blurb. I really hope he fails with this.
Original backers are apparently still waiting for physical goods which Garriot has no more money to even produce as we know now.
Best would be to let the thing die and be honest about it.