If Valve and Bethesda really want to help encourage modders, as others have said let them put a donations option, where people who use the mod can choose to donate or not.
Skyrim Skyrim - Paid Mod Status Update(Re-Opened)
- Thread starter Couchpotato
- Start date
The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
lostforever
SasqWatch
So far modders didn't need any encouragement from the kind and altruist people at Valve and Bethesda. They were thriving without any from encouragement from these kind and altruist people!
(PS I am all for donations option)
greywolf00
Keeper of the Watch
I'm not a fan of this at all. It would have to be an exceptional mod with a ton of content for a reasonable price ($1 or less per hour of content) for me to even consider buying it. That goes for mods for any games, not just Skyrim.
Someone filed a DMCA takedown request for Wet and Cold.
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=429374670&searchtext=
http://i.imgur.com/Wk1DXFL.jpg
Given that Isoku did actually replace many of the borrowed free content from others with content either of their own or that they had permission to use, it is probably an oversight if it is true. Of course it shouldn't be suprising that we'd see those sorts of things with complex mods that have been around and grown for years with contributors coming and going. That's the can of worms that's been opened. The mods out there that might be the most worthy of compensation - both to further continued improvements and to reward large amounts of excellent work - will also tend to be those with which rights, contributors, and licenses become messiest.
I do hope it is not someone filing frivolous/fraudulent take down requests over this though. Harrying modders is not going to help anyone and has the potential to damage the enjoyability and future of modding as much if not more than anything valve could do. To be clear - abusing the DMCA in order to use it as a cudgel to squash speech, content, or practices you don't like is abhorant; doing so fraudulently is doubly so and is illegal.
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=429374670&searchtext=
http://i.imgur.com/Wk1DXFL.jpg
Given that Isoku did actually replace many of the borrowed free content from others with content either of their own or that they had permission to use, it is probably an oversight if it is true. Of course it shouldn't be suprising that we'd see those sorts of things with complex mods that have been around and grown for years with contributors coming and going. That's the can of worms that's been opened. The mods out there that might be the most worthy of compensation - both to further continued improvements and to reward large amounts of excellent work - will also tend to be those with which rights, contributors, and licenses become messiest.
I do hope it is not someone filing frivolous/fraudulent take down requests over this though. Harrying modders is not going to help anyone and has the potential to damage the enjoyability and future of modding as much if not more than anything valve could do. To be clear - abusing the DMCA in order to use it as a cudgel to squash speech, content, or practices you don't like is abhorant; doing so fraudulently is doubly so and is illegal.
Last edited:
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Edgy
Edgy
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So Bethesda finally makes something related to choices that have consequences
and people condemn them. lol
Seriously now I personally don't care about it, but modders who put their
mod behaind a paywall need to understand that less people will get involved
with their work, and the people who do will expect a higher standard mod
as opposed to a free one.
Also Valve and Bethesda expect the customers to monitor the whole thing?
You know what will happen. People stealing from each other and it will be problematic to prove it. Troll mods will flood the workshop. Moders will try to emulate pay mods with free mods to offer a chance to get around them etc.
and people condemn them. lol
Seriously now I personally don't care about it, but modders who put their
mod behaind a paywall need to understand that less people will get involved
with their work, and the people who do will expect a higher standard mod
as opposed to a free one.
Also Valve and Bethesda expect the customers to monitor the whole thing?
You know what will happen. People stealing from each other and it will be problematic to prove it. Troll mods will flood the workshop. Moders will try to emulate pay mods with free mods to offer a chance to get around them etc.
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Forbes gives an interesting take on what Valve might want to do to try to salvage this:
http://www.forbes.com/sites/insertc...ke-a-paid-skyrim-mod-store-work-for-everyone/
Some actually decent and reasonable suggestions, perhaps a little middle-of-the-road for some people though. The "blacklist" suggestion (modders being able to flag their content not to be allowed to be included in paid mods) might be a case where something akin to youtube's "content ID" would actually be a *good* idea.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/insertc...ke-a-paid-skyrim-mod-store-work-for-everyone/
Some actually decent and reasonable suggestions, perhaps a little middle-of-the-road for some people though. The "blacklist" suggestion (modders being able to flag their content not to be allowed to be included in paid mods) might be a case where something akin to youtube's "content ID" would actually be a *good* idea.
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zahratustra
SasqWatch
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here is the first part of that article which underlines many of the issues raised at this forum:
http://www.forbes.com/sites/insertc...ds-are-a-legal-ethical-and-creative-disaster/
http://www.forbes.com/sites/insertc...ds-are-a-legal-ethical-and-creative-disaster/
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I don't have a problem with paying for mods in theory. Especially so for mods that achieve any or all of the following 3 things:
1. Changes the way the game plays in some way that makes a game that I previously would NOT play into a game I would play. Most recent example is Skyrim... if it weren't for the SkyUI mod I would NOT ever have played the game.
2. Fixed bugs that have gone unaddressed by the developer. Recent 3 examples are modders who fixed a good number of bugs (or solved other problems) for Oblivion, Skyrim, and Dark Souls 1.
3. Adding compelling content in sufficient quantity. This is a real subjective one, but see below for mods I would NOT pay for to better understand.
Mods I would NOT pay for:
1. Mods that change underlying gameplay mechanics in ways that greatly depart from what the developer intended. Though I *might* pay for such mods at a later time, after my first play through *IF* I enjoyed the game enough to play it again. One recent example is Oscuro's Oblivion Overhaul (OOO). Despite that I didn't much like level scaling during my first play through of Oblivion, I still wanted to experience the game as it was in Vanilla format. BUT in a recent play through of Oblivion, I did use OOO and enjoyed it. If this was a mod for purchase, they would have had to wait YEARS before I ever would have paid for it.
2. Mods adding only superficial content such as a weapon or piece of armor. Anything piecemeal like that I'd never pay for.
Still, I imagine that converting a hobby into a transaction will have a good number of unintended consequences. But somehow I hope it works out for those who are talented and put out some magnificent mods.
1. Changes the way the game plays in some way that makes a game that I previously would NOT play into a game I would play. Most recent example is Skyrim... if it weren't for the SkyUI mod I would NOT ever have played the game.
2. Fixed bugs that have gone unaddressed by the developer. Recent 3 examples are modders who fixed a good number of bugs (or solved other problems) for Oblivion, Skyrim, and Dark Souls 1.
3. Adding compelling content in sufficient quantity. This is a real subjective one, but see below for mods I would NOT pay for to better understand.
Mods I would NOT pay for:
1. Mods that change underlying gameplay mechanics in ways that greatly depart from what the developer intended. Though I *might* pay for such mods at a later time, after my first play through *IF* I enjoyed the game enough to play it again. One recent example is Oscuro's Oblivion Overhaul (OOO). Despite that I didn't much like level scaling during my first play through of Oblivion, I still wanted to experience the game as it was in Vanilla format. BUT in a recent play through of Oblivion, I did use OOO and enjoyed it. If this was a mod for purchase, they would have had to wait YEARS before I ever would have paid for it.
2. Mods adding only superficial content such as a weapon or piece of armor. Anything piecemeal like that I'd never pay for.
Still, I imagine that converting a hobby into a transaction will have a good number of unintended consequences. But somehow I hope it works out for those who are talented and put out some magnificent mods.
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I play games and use mods to improve them, and as many of u said Bethesda games work best this way. Putting aside the fact that someone takes 75% and someone 25% for a moment and thinking about ME the consumer.. let me put some perspective in this
"Q. What happens if a mod I bought breaks?
A. Sometimes one mod may modify the same files as another mod, or a particular combination of mods may cause unexpected outcomes. If you find that mod has broken or is behaving unexpectedly, it is best to post politely on the Workshop item's page and let the mod author know the details of what you are seeing."
So now go buy a mod (as you and I buy games) and we don't play them for mounts.. then when u want to play it is broken or does not work with some other mods that u like or because of an update or just because the modder found a job that pays more then 25% after u sell 400$ etc..
As i see it: u pay money and u don't have the guaranty that will still work in the future… not the best of ways to spent in my opinion
"Q. What happens if a mod I bought breaks?
A. Sometimes one mod may modify the same files as another mod, or a particular combination of mods may cause unexpected outcomes. If you find that mod has broken or is behaving unexpectedly, it is best to post politely on the Workshop item's page and let the mod author know the details of what you are seeing."
So now go buy a mod (as you and I buy games) and we don't play them for mounts.. then when u want to play it is broken or does not work with some other mods that u like or because of an update or just because the modder found a job that pays more then 25% after u sell 400$ etc..
As i see it: u pay money and u don't have the guaranty that will still work in the future… not the best of ways to spent in my opinion
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Xian
Sentinel
If anyone is interested, Gabe Newell himself is answering questions on Reddit regarding paid mods
http://www.reddit.com/r/gaming/comments/33uplp/mods_and_steam/
http://www.reddit.com/r/gaming/comments/33uplp/mods_and_steam/
axellslade
No Title Please
Nah, that's just Zenimax trying to win back the money they lost with ESO... Since they didn't have any new game in the works, they had to make money off games they already had.
Ripper
Зичу Вам успіхів
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It'll be interesting when a game update completely breaks a mod. This has happened many times, in particular the Open Cities mod was killed by a memory crash introduced by the last Skyrim patch, and was abandoned for months. It was only brought back when Sheson came up with his memory management hack.
Will customers be entitled to refunds on mods when this happens? That would be a hot mess.
Will customers be entitled to refunds on mods when this happens? That would be a hot mess.
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Drithius
Magic & Loss
easier to navigate, albeit out of context: http://www.reddit.com/user/GabeNewellBellevue?count=25&after=t1_cqokdtp
Some interesting mods submitted for review so far. Some at €91.99 look to be proving that this is encouraging higher quality work already 
Nerevarine
Keeper of the Watch
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Ok, I have refrained from commenting because I wanted to hear both sides and avoid a knee-jerk reaction (because I'm not human and never do that ) Now that the news has soaked in, hear goes:
This sort of thing won't be apocalyptic, and modding will continue to thrive. But it makes me sad. There was such a purity to modding because it was the lone result of passion. In one extreme example, a mod for a game ended up being the best strategy game I ever played: Europa Barbarorum (better known simply as "EB"). A large number of volunteers rallied under a single banner in the name of making an astounding experience for Rome: Total War, to the point that it was a completely "new" and incredible game when they were finished. This mod is amazing, and the fact that it was created in the name of passion rather than profit is heart-warming and inspiring; there is a purity and innocence that will be lost.
I suppose it was inevitable that the powers that be would figure out a way to monetize user-created content eventually. After all, anything that is "free" can be monetized. I think the "spirit" of modding will shift, as anything always does when money is involved. This doesn't mean that there won't still be amazing user-created content, but the dynamics will be different. Overall, there will be a loss of "innocence" in the creation of mods. The spirit of making something amazing for the sake of passion and enthusiasm alone will eventually vanish.
So, user-created content will continue to enhance games for the PC. But the intention will be called into question, and it is a sad end of an era for the innocent hobbyist enthusiasm that was the catalyst for such amazing projects. That is the aspect that I will mourn.
) Now that the news has soaked in, hear goes:This sort of thing won't be apocalyptic, and modding will continue to thrive. But it makes me sad. There was such a purity to modding because it was the lone result of passion. In one extreme example, a mod for a game ended up being the best strategy game I ever played: Europa Barbarorum (better known simply as "EB"). A large number of volunteers rallied under a single banner in the name of making an astounding experience for Rome: Total War, to the point that it was a completely "new" and incredible game when they were finished. This mod is amazing, and the fact that it was created in the name of passion rather than profit is heart-warming and inspiring; there is a purity and innocence that will be lost.
I suppose it was inevitable that the powers that be would figure out a way to monetize user-created content eventually. After all, anything that is "free" can be monetized. I think the "spirit" of modding will shift, as anything always does when money is involved. This doesn't mean that there won't still be amazing user-created content, but the dynamics will be different. Overall, there will be a loss of "innocence" in the creation of mods. The spirit of making something amazing for the sake of passion and enthusiasm alone will eventually vanish.
So, user-created content will continue to enhance games for the PC. But the intention will be called into question, and it is a sad end of an era for the innocent hobbyist enthusiasm that was the catalyst for such amazing projects. That is the aspect that I will mourn.
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Another thing happening I'd say was expected:
- "here comes the money eyyyy" only 91,99€ adds I am Rich sword that serves no purpose
- "More Rubbish" adds… more rubbish in the game ofc
- "Chicken Companion" is exactly what it says only it's viking helmet equipped han!
It's not trolling the community actually. It's a protest on the bloody 75% fee.
Anyone can say Valve is just running a business, but sorry, this is skinning people alive business and as such should be prohibited.
EDIT:
Whoever loves Steam, I suggest buying these almost 100 mods… As each adds 75 $ or € to Valve. And we all want to support Valve to do nothing since they don't have enough cash to invest into HL3.
- "here comes the money eyyyy" only 91,99€ adds I am Rich sword that serves no purpose
- "More Rubbish" adds… more rubbish in the game ofc
- "Chicken Companion" is exactly what it says only it's viking helmet equipped han!
It's not trolling the community actually. It's a protest on the bloody 75% fee.
Anyone can say Valve is just running a business, but sorry, this is skinning people alive business and as such should be prohibited.
EDIT:
You really couldn't wait 3 more minutes?Some interesting mods submitted for review so far. Some at €91.99 look to be proving that this is encouraging higher quality work already
Whoever loves Steam, I suggest buying these almost 100 mods… As each adds 75 $ or € to Valve. And we all want to support Valve to do nothing since they don't have enough cash to invest into HL3.
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Ok, I have refrained from commenting because I wanted to hear both sides and avoid a knee-jerk reaction (because I'm not human and never do that
This sort of thing won't be apocalyptic, and modding will continue to thrive. But it makes me sad. There was such a purity to modding because it was the lone result of passion. In one extreme example, a mod for a game ended up being the best strategy game I ever played: Europa Barbarorum (better known simply as "EB"). A large number of volunteers rallied under a single banner in the name of making an astounding experience for Rome: Total War, to the point that it was a completely "new" and incredible game when they were finished. This mod is amazing, and the fact that it was created in the name of passion rather than profit is heart-warming and inspiring; there is a purity and innocence that will be lost.
I suppose it was inevitable that the powers that be would figure out a way to monetize user-created content eventually. After all, anything that is "free" can be monetized. I think the "spirit" of modding will shift, as anything always does when money is involved. This doesn't mean that there won't still be amazing user-created content, but the dynamics will be different. Overall, there will be a loss of "innocence" in the creation of mods. The spirit of making something amazing for the sake of passion and enthusiasm alone will eventually vanish.
So, user-created content will continue to enhance games for the PC. But the intention will be called into question, and it is a sad end of an era for the innocent hobbyist enthusiasm that was the catalyst for such amazing projects. That is the aspect that I will mourn.
I think you have the right of it and thank you for those thoughts. The payment system can work and work well. The problem is how they've structured the payment system and the legal protections they give to modders (not a whole lot). Moreover this should never have been applied to Skyrim. The mod scene is just too complex and interdependent to support a robust paid mod community without the existing community falling apart in division, arguments, and recrimination. Remember this is a 3 1/2 year old game now. Developer support for it as well as buzz have long since tapered. The mod community runs under its own momentum and this just disrupted that momentum something fierce. It was a stupid decision by Valve and Bethsoft that lost them a lot of goodwill. A payment system should have been released with a new game, not with Skyrim. I predict that the Skyrim mod scene will be hurt by this and be hurt badly. Whether it recovers as things settle out, I'm way less certain.
So short version: Payment system? Could work. Current implementation? Atrocious. Skyrim? Bad move. Future games? Could work even with the current fallout. Future of Skyrim mod scene? "Reply hazy, try again." Future of paid mods? Will likely work out if Valve supports the system better than they've run Greenlifht.
Hey, here's a freaky thought. I vaguely recall some angst over the copyright status of any mods made for Bethsoft games (Oblivion?). I wonder what would happen if Bethesda decided to assert their ownership of all mods again. I don't think it's likely, but it is a nasty bit of speculation.
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It'd be way too risky with a new game. That's why they picked Skyrim as their guinea pig. The game has a huge established modding community and has made both companies metric shittons of money. A perfect target to test the waters.
Depending on how this shakes out, they can still backpedal for FO4 or go full steam (pun alert!) ahead with some amendments.
I don't think there is a full way back anymore though. The concept must be way too tempting for Valve and publishers of moddable games. They will easily make a few millions on the side from mod microtransactions. Imagine something like SkyUI would have been only available as a paid mod for $2.99 from the start. That one alone would have made them a couple of millions. Or SKSE as the base req for many mods. More millions.
I would also bet real money that they will make must-have mods in-house in the future and undercover-publish them as John Doe. So, yeah, that Mona Lisa pic is unfortunately depicting the cold, harsh truth.
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That's the most important thing not mentioned by any article out there, not even Forbes analisys!
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