Gothic Remake - Steam Page Up

JDR13 said:

The first game takes place in a male prison colony, so it would be quite the stretch to have a woman being thrown in there. I'm not sure how they could have spun the story to make that work.

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And that's what happens when I don't read the story properly.

They'd have to put a mix of violent male and female prisoners then, that would make for an interesting environment Yeah, I see their predicament.

Redglyph said:

And that's what happens when I don't read the story properly.

They'd have to put a mix of violent male and female prisoners then, that would make for an interesting environment Yeah, I see their predicament.

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This should also help you understand why the concept of Fantasy and RPG are so intrinsically linked in the west and Japan to mean environments where historical and common-sense congruity is relatively irrelevant, in that the RPG culture has always been an intrinsically unisex one, at least from the period following the creation of D&D (the more strategical aspect of tabletop war-gaming following the Warhammer line instead, still a more male-centric hobby).

And we can now glean why the likes of Gothic and Witcher struggled initially to get recognised in the west as RPGs rather than purely action games. Sure, they had the mechanics that one might expect of an RPG, but they didn't have the freedom. They were constrained by... realisms, static protagonists and 'low fantasy'.

While JRPGs also often suffer from static protagonists, they do not suffer the burden of realism that the central european developers always seem to enjoy getting overly bogged-down in.

So while central europeans are often quite strong on mechanics, they tend to fall down on the other two aspects which really define the genre to westerners, that of freedom of choice, which is invariably linked to fantasy (either historical or futuristic in nature).

The very concept of 'low fantasy' is one that only really emerged as a result of the central european market getting larger and its attempts to create games that their own market would like.

And, yes, this does even tie into politics, unfortunately, and why games are becoming more and more susceptible to political lobbying, both from the 'left' and 'right'. An RPG should, inherently, be another word for total inclusivity. However, the concept of 'total inclusivity' is literally impossible if you apply any form of 'realism' beyond extremely basic concepts.

I've tried to rally against 'realism' and 'low fantasy' in RPGs since about 2005 and it's a subject I am very familiar with. However, it is without doubt that games like Gothic, Witcher and Kingdom Come: Deliverance are 'good games' with 'strong RPG mechanics', and I have no interest in slagging those games off. However, I am happy to forever reiterate my views on them, even though people usually tend to read my views as 'attacks' on those games rather than harmless cautionary warnings.

Since you're new, I thought I'd see what you thought about this?

lackblogger said:

And we can now glean why the likes of Gothic and Witcher struggled initially to get recognised in the west as RPGs rather than purely action games. Sure, they had the mechanics that one might expect of an RPG, but they didn't have the freedom. They were constrained by… realisms, static protagonists and 'low fantasy'.

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I don't recall those games ever having an issue being recognized as RPGs. They might get referred to as action-RPGs, which wouldn't be wrong, but I've never seen anyone confuse them with pure action games.

JDR13 said:

The first game takes place in a male prison colony, so it would be quite the stretch to have a woman being thrown in there. I'm not sure how they could have spun the story to make that work.

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It would just be a prison colony...
Not a specifically male prison.

JDR13 said:

The first game takes place in a male prison colony, so it would be quite the stretch to have a woman being thrown in there. I'm not sure how they could have spun the story to make that work.

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Hundred percent. I even remember the demo coming out as an rpg game. That's the only reason I tried it out and then purchased it.

lackblogger said:

While JRPGs also often suffer from static protagonists, they do not suffer the burden of realism that the central european developers always seem to enjoy getting overly bogged-down in.

So while central europeans are often quite strong on mechanics, they tend to fall down on the other two aspects which really define the genre to westerners, that of freedom of choice, which is invariably linked to fantasy (either historical or futuristic in nature).

The very concept of 'low fantasy' is one that only really emerged as a result of the central european market getting larger and its attempts to create games that their own market would like.

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D&D and early derivative western tabletop games are issued of war models, from which they kept a first important component, the mechanics of the game. That component defines the rules and the boundaries. Another component is the storytelling, in which the imagination, with the support of fantasy and freedom, defines the social factor. The last component is exploration.

So as I see it, western RPGs have very strong mechanical foundations. And even if storytelling and fantasy were progressively included to make it more attractive, the setting must be defined. Haven't the Forgotten Realms and Golarion become very popular? When a new video game is released, the criticism on how "this doesn't feel D&D" I've seen was not coming from "Central Europe" players, but mostly from Western players.

By the way, I'm uncomfortable with the "Central Europe" / "West" dichotomy, because I live in Europe and I don't feel much difference between, for example, German and French players, or even Polish players. I feel more difference between Western Europe - which much be close enough to UK and the US / Canada, and Eastern Europe.

Gothic comes from Germany, and to me it's pretty much the standard fantasy model that mixes medieval weapons with magic, human and non-human races (limited to orcs if I'm not wrong), realistic and fantastic animals.

The Witcher series by Sapkowski is a fantasy setting, deeper fantasy I would say than Gothic's. The game and the books come from Poland, so from Eastern Europe but rather on the western side of it.

Many other RPGs coming from Eastern Europe (mostly Russia) are more realistic and often post-apocalyptic: STALKER, the Metro series, Atom RPG, Encased, Urban Strife come to mind. Note that the US have their share of realistic zombie-based RPGs but there are also many other settings. Maybe that's what you had in mind, let me know if I'm wrong.

So I see where you're coming from, but I disagree somewhat on the examples. Have Gothic and The Witcher struggled to be recognized as RPGs? Because they were realistic with little fantasy? Maybe Gothic, I don't know it well enough to be sure, but definitely not The Witcher, in my opinion.

I hate to use Wikipedia, but if I only use the references used in Gothic's reception, I see that both European and US journalists recognized it for its story and roleplaying experience, but it was criticized at least by one of them for its poor combat mechanics (but I suspect it's more about the control over the action than the rules, TBC).

As for the freedom of choice being linked to fantasy, I think it's just one dimension of it, and that you can find other dimensions in eastern RPGs, the freedom to comply or not to comply with the system, the freedom of personality and specialty. The fantasy I see - but honestly I have some difficulties to appreciate their culture, is the exploration of extreme environment and conditions, and ways to survive and strive in them.

And, yes, this does even tie into politics, unfortunately, and why games are becoming more and more susceptible to political lobbying, both from the 'left' and 'right'. An RPG should, inherently, be another word for total inclusivity. However, the concept of 'total inclusivity' is literally impossible if you apply any form of 'realism' beyond extremely basic concepts.

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That part is not clear to me.

Interesting, thanks for the reply.

Pessimeister said:

Gothic is single player third person perspective. So think Kotor and Jade Empire and you're on the right track.

If you'd like to play a game with a female protagonist in a somewhat similar gameplay style to Gothic, blob, I can heartily recommend Venetica if you haven't already played it. While I haven't completed the game yet, I quite liked what I have played. Not quite as compelling or primitive setting wise as Gothic but nonetheless an interesting world in its own right. I found out about the game years ago via the 'Watch actually - I think txa or Gorath was posting about it.

https://store.steampowered.com/app/338140/Venetica__Gold_Edition/

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Thanks for the recommendation In fact, I do have Venetica in my steam library so I will give it a go soon

Pladio said:

It would just be a prison colony.
Not a specifically male prison.

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Yeah, for the folks talking about medieval authenticity, that would actually be more plausible. The idea of segregated prisons for men and women is essentially an invention of the modern conscience.

In that period, even the use of prisons as punishment (rather than temporary detention) was rare - the justice system would usually do something horrible, quick and cheap to you instead. If you did end up in a jail, everyone was chucked in together, and good luck to you. Where you had penal colonies and debt bondage, they were typically mixed, too.

Ripper said:

Yeah, for the folks talking about medieval authenticity, that would actually be more plausible. The idea of segregated prisons for men and women is essentially an invention of the modern conscience.

In that period, even the use of prisons as punishment (rather than temporary detention) was rare - the justice system would usually do something horrible, quick and cheap to you instead. If you did end up in a jail, everyone was chucked in together, and good luck to you. Where you had penal colonies and debt bondage, they were typically mixed, too.

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Yes indeed, people's interpretation of 'realism' itself can very often be a purely imagined and fantastical interpretation of entirely contemporary concepts.

For me, the root of the issue lay at the very start of the development process, in the very minds of those deciding to make an RPG. The point at which the developer thinks in their mind "I want to make an RPG that has strong historical authenticity".

Like the old saying goes: "You're making a game where you shoot fireballs at goblins and your reward is a ring that when you wear it makes you more agile, and you're concerned about realism?"

Yes, it's important to have a coherent world and to maintain a specific tone, but when first conceiving the RPG, why is it that certain aspects are important for 'realism' while other aspects are not. And likewise, any player choosing to play an RPG, why will they pick up on some specific aspect or 'realism' while being entirely capable of ignoring so much other completely implausible content.

Would a female character in an all-male prison (who just happens to be there because of whatever reason) be constantly raped all the time? Why even think about it, she just doesn't and the game doesn't need to say or explain why that is.

After all, there's just as much likelihood that a male will be raped in an all-male prison as there is a female, if we are going for full 'realism', and yet no-one complains about the fact that the male character never has to deal with people wanting to rape him. The game simply doesn't have it and doesn't feel the need to explain why.

lackblogger said:

Yes, it's important to have a coherent world and to maintain a specific tone, but when first conceiving the RPG, why is it that certain aspects are important for 'realism' while other aspects are not. And likewise, any player choosing to play an RPG, why will they pick up on some specific aspect or 'realism' while being entirely capable of ignoring so much other completely implausible content.

Would a female character in an all-male prison (who just happens to be there because of whatever reason) be constantly raped all the time? Why even think about it, she just doesn't and the game doesn't need to say or explain why that is.

After all, there's just as much likelihood that a male will be raped in an all-male prison as there is a female, if we are going for full 'realism', and yet no-one complains about the fact that the male character never has to deal with people wanting to rape him. The game simply doesn't have it and doesn't feel the need to explain why.

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This is where the politics of our age come into it. For men the issue of male rape is one that can be ignored despite its frequency in some situations but for woman's representation there is almost a demand/expectation to include all aspects of female suffering or be branded a sexist. So while we may comfortably exclude some aspects we cannot comfortably exclude others. We may think the developers can leave stuff out like this but in all likelihood they are trying to avoid landmines with the result being the culture has effectively incentivised not including female characters due to the pressure.

purpleblob said:

Its called I can't RP male, thanks

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On a side note, by coincidence a Disco Elysium thread is running at the same time as this thread. In that thread you link to an article where you are playing that game, which has a fixed male protagonist, and you gave it 8/10.

You do preface the article by saying you don't usually play male protagonists. However, now that you obviously have, why have you then replied to me in such an absolute manner here?

As you quite clearly can and still end up finishing and overall liking the game. I get that you still prefer not to, but the reply here doesn't indicate a mild preference but an absolute. A very aggressively worded absolute to-boot.

I have no interest in forcing you to play Gothic, I can assure you'd I'd never force anyone to play anything. Just curious about the obvious contradiction.

Silver said:

This is where the politics of our age come into it. For men the issue of male rape is one that can be ignored despite its frequency in some situations but for woman's representation there is almost a demand/expectation to include all aspects of female suffering or be branded a sexist. So while we may comfortably exclude some aspects we cannot comfortably exclude others. We may think the developers can leave stuff out like this but in all likelihood they are trying to avoid landmines with the result being the culture has effectively incentivised not including female characters due to the pressure.

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No, I don't buy this at all. The point was that the game doesn't feature rape at all, and by having a female protagonist you still don't need to include any rape. People aren't going to complain about the absence of rape in a game. Are they?

lackblogger said:

On a side note, by coincidence a Disco Elysium thread is running at the same time as this thread. In that thread you link to an article where you are playing that game, which has a fixed male protagonist, and you gave it 8/10.

You do preface the article by saying you don't usually play male protagonists. However, now that you obviously have, why have you then replied to me in such an absolute manner here?

As you quite clearly can and still end up finishing and overall liking the game. I get that you still prefer not to, but the reply here doesn't indicate a mild preference but an absolute. A very aggressively worded absolute to-boot.

I have no interest in forcing you to play Gothic, I can assure you'd I'd never force anyone to play anything. Just curious about the obvious contradiction.

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If I came across aggressive, I apologies but I wasn't too happy with "sexist!" comment made by you earlier on (yes, I understand you meant jokingly now).

As I noted both in this thread and Disco Elysium impression thread, I don't enjoy RPing a male protagonist. It took my hubby a long time to convince me to give DE a go (and I almost called it quits several times after starting it too). I ended up enjoying DE because I could shape my character the way I am (quoting from my DE impression thread that he became a representation of "me"). In addition, I don't think the gender of the protagonist in DE really mattered that much - it could have easily been a story of female character.

lackblogger said:

No, I don't buy this at all. The point was that the game doesn't feature rape at all, and by having a female protagonist you still don't need to include any rape. People aren't going to complain about the absence of rape in a game. Are they?

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No people won't complain about it but game journos might take issue if womans issues aren't explored more or if the game doesn't differentiate a male playthrough from a female playthrough sufficiently. There likely won't be a demand for rape to be depicted but that was the example given.

Silver said:

No people won't complain about it but game journos might take issue if womans issues aren't explored more or if the game doesn't differentiate a male playthrough from a female playthrough sufficiently. There likely won't be a demand for rape to be depicted but that was the example given.

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Well fair enough I suppose, that does happen with some games, for sure. I must admit, I'm not really familiar with it happening with the RPG genre though, unless I've missed some news items at some point. The only reason rape is the topic here is because previously in the thread it was stated that it was 'obvious' why there couldn't be a female protagonist, with the implication that she's just be raped all the time in an all-male prison. As if it's somehow imperative that a fantasy RPG should include rape as a 'realism'.

@purpleblob;

there's a fantastic mod for Gothic 2 that features a female Avatar:

Gothic 2 Velaya Mod

lackblogger said:

Well fair enough I suppose, that does happen with some games, for sure. I must admit, I'm not really familiar with it happening with the RPG genre though, unless I've missed some news items at some point. The only reason rape is the topic here is because previously in the thread it was stated that it was 'obvious' why there couldn't be a female protagonist, with the implication that she's just be raped all the time in an all-male prison. As if it's somehow imperative that a fantasy RPG should include rape as a 'realism'.

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Yeah this all came about because I noted earlier that Gothic isn't actually realistic and doesn't feature male rape despite its likelihood. Plotwise I can't imagine a King sending females to work in a mine when the goal is production of war materials but you can wave that away to some extent. The question of how much people are comfortable with is up to the player. I'm watching Outlander atm which is about Scottish rebellion in the highlands and a female time traveller so I am being particularly observant of the gender roles atm. It wouldn't make a bad RPG to be honest.

As to RPGs we mostly already have little obstacles unless it is a feature of the setting itself like aforementioned Kingdom Come: Deliverance. That game got some flak for lack of certain races and the representation of woman was criticised also.

HiddenX said:

@purpleblob;

there's a fantastic mod for Gothic 2 that features a female Avatar:

Gothic 2 Velaya Mod

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Thanks for that. I did a bit of reading and it sounds like a story of female protagonist straight after the ending of Gothic 1 - do I need to read up on summary of Gothic 1 story to play this mod?

You don't really need to know the Gothic 1 story to play it, but it's more fun to play with this context information.