Good to know, thanks.
Torment: Tides of Numenera - Third Alpha Systems Test Released, Crisis Gameplay
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Good to know, thanks.
From what I understood the idea is to allow more action per turns without bogging the player down in maths.
In D:OS, you have between 7 and 10ish starting AP depending on your stats (and without using the exploit to max all the stats). Your abilities cost between 3 and 10 AP (5/6 AP is the most common, 10 is for Resurrect only). I looked at the numbers over the wiki.
That means that you either move a little and attack in a turn, do two (or three) low cost actions in a turn or wait to get more AP to be able to use a "big one" in the next turn. It is basically a two actions system.
In the new proposed system, you have 4 starting AP with ability cost reduced to 1 and 2 AP (one previewer mentioned these values). That means a possible 4 actions per turn .
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DArtagnan
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I fully understand the intention.
But, you see, let's say we have a game and you have 7 action points left:
Action 1 costs 3 AP
Action 2 costs 4 AP
Under that system, you could either do:
2x Action 1 and save 2
1x action 1 and save 4
1x action 2, and save 3
1x action 1x and action 2
or nothing at all.
Then you have a system where you have 2 AP left.
Action 1 costs 1 AP
Action 2 costs 2 AP
Under that system, you could either do:
2x action 1 and save nothing
1x action 1 and save 1
1x action 2 and save nothing
Nothing at all.
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That's WITHOUT movement.
That's just an example of how such a system doesn't allow you to "fine-tune" your tactical approach, and how there are fewer considerations when it comes to saving points.
I'm not saying that's how they'll do it, I'm just saying I'm worried it could be something like that.
I tend to enjoy "optimising" my performance, so long as it's not bogged down in trivial calculations.
I actually found D:OS very appealing and I didn't feel it was too complicated or hard. I certainly had fun messing around with combats.
You can't use the same ability twice in a turn in D:OS unless it's a basic attack. Also, your aren't comparing the same ability cost in your examples.
In the old system, a 3 or 4AP ability was a low cost one, both become 1AP cost abilities in the new systems. A high cost ability will cost 2 AP in the new system (example, Blazing Bolt cost 2AP in D:OS2, when it cost 6AP in D:OS. I saw the tooltip in the D:OS2 video linked below). In other word, you are comparing two low cost abilities vs one low cost and one high cost abilities. Either change you 4 AP into 6 AP or use two 1AP.
Also, in the old system, you regained 3 AP per turn (if you don't increase speed). You still seem to regain 3 AP per turn in the new system going by videos (no idea if speed affect it). In the old system, 3 AP means one low cost ability. In the new system, 3 AP means three low cost abilities or 1 low cost and 1 high cost ability each turns. As long as not everything is on cooldowns…
All that without movement of course.
You can see what it looks like in this D:OS2 video (might have annoying voice over, I looked at it on mute).
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DArtagnan
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It was a hypothetical example, not necessarily about D:OS vs D:OS 2 as I don't remember ability costs - though I think it serves as a demonstration of the potential complexity differences all the same.
You can just replace the 2x action 1 with 2x action of 3 AP costs instead, if that helps demonstrate my point. If 3 and 4 will be 1 and 1 in the new system, there's still going to be a difference in terms of saving points - and you won't be able to save a different amount of points by doing 2x 1 AP action in the new one, where you can with either going 2x 3 AP (save 1) or 1x 4 and 1x 3 (save no points) in my example of the old one with 7 AP left - and you won't be able to do 2x 4, which means another element of complexity you'd have to consider.
Point is that in a 4 AP system, there's only going to be 1 and 2 AP costs - according to you.
In D:OS - actions/movement ranged from ~1-MAX, depending on a variety of things.
If you can't see how that opens up a wider range of options and ways of optimising point usage and saving them, then I don't know what to say.
In fact, I'd go as far as saying there can be no question that having ~15 AP max with 1-15 movement/action costs will provide a MUCH wider range of options than 4 AP with 1-2 AP costs.
The real question is whether all those added options are BETTER or simply in the way.
I'm sceptical 1-2/4 is truly better than 1-15/15.
Yes, they're simplifying it by taking different costs and making them the same.
I just gave you a constructed example to demonstrate the dangers of simplifying - and I'm not saying D:OS 2 will be like that.
I don't remember the details of D:OS, but I do know that abilities had a wide range of AP costs, and that the avenues of attack were many.
I don't really feel like looking up all the abilities and constructing an elaborate example versus another hypothetical 4 AP system.
I guess I was just hoping you could see why it could be a bad thing, if done wrong.
If they manage to preserve the same meaningful complexity for D:OS 2, then that's great - but I'll have to reserve judgment until I see a complete product.
As in, I haven't already determined if it's good or bad - I'm just worried.
I'm getting a headache from all the math - so I think I'll give up trying to explain this here
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That explain so much. I'm trying to explain to you that the new system will allow you to do more in a turn regardless if you reserve AP or not because everything cost less than in D.:OS using facts, but you make crap in your mind instead to try to prove that D:OS is more complex.
WoW!
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DArtagnan
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If you want to ignore what I'm saying, that's ok - but then why exchange?
It's not about being able to do more in a turn - it's about having to THINK about your choices.
I'm not trying to prove anything about D:OS and D:OS 2. How many times must I repeat that?
Yes, I'm trying to come up with an example to demonstrate the dangers of going with a 4 AP system. I was hoping it would suffice without having to go "all the way" - but apparently you're ignoring my point and you think it's about how many actions you can do in a turn.
You have decided to believe in the new system without knowing all the facts, and that's cool - most people are easier to convince than I am.
Like how about haste and AP cost reduction. How do they plan to implement haste and reduce a 1 AP cost ability?
As you mastered Sneak in D:OS - you went from 6, 5, 4, 3, 2 and finally to 1 AP cost. Will that translate to just a single jump from 2 to 1 AP in D:OS 2?
How do those things work in D:OS 2?
Link me a quote or video where they demonstrate how 1 AP abilities will cost less as you master them, like in D:OS - and that will go a long way to ease my scepticism.
If you know everything about an unfinished game, I have to say I am impressed
I'm saying I loved D:OS - and I remain SCEPTICAL about D:OS 2 until I see every detail. I'd much rather see the full product with everything implemented - but if you have a source that details every single change to the system - including stuff like haste, then that might help me in having the same kind of faith you have.
Still, it's not a huge deal. I'm sure it will still be fun even if it's simplified - it's just not what I'd prefer.
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