Torment:ToN - Beyond the Beyond

Probalby another year or two until this is fully patched and the EE version has been released.

To me, the problem with critique is when it's not nuanced nor constructive, and yes, I do believe the Codex has this problem. If you like something about a game, you're a fanboy blind to the games OBVIOUS shortcomings. There's so much senseless bashing it's hard to find the good comments among all the trash ones. I do think the Watch is better, and I do not agree "naive optimism" is something that's cherised, although some members practice it...

I want opinions on games in the forums, and I like reading discussions. Negative comments without explanations WHY one feels that way is just trolling, as is true fanboyish "BEST GAME EVAAAR" without reasons why one feels that way.

Just finished and clocked in at 34 hours total. Have to gush I am afraid as I just loved it. What a ride I have had since the game came out. Maybe I will write more later but need to break away and reflect. Endings were so very hard and I admit I ran through a few of them at the end. I went with my instinct, however, for the first one and liked it but … well no spoilers so can't explain but I had mixed feelings.

Since you have a save right before hand I went through a few other scenarios, considering the nature of the world and reality it would make sense. Of all the choices only one other sat well with me and felt right for my character.

Not sure which one I will consider canon. Will have to sleep on it.

Anyhow game could use some polish on combat and I suppose bugs although I only encountered one bug the entire time - and it only happened once which was the stuck dialogue pop-up which a reload fixed.

Great game and a nice change of pace from games I have been playing. Guess I would rate it around an 8.5/10. Add some speed control on combat and would bump up to 9.

Kordanor said:

I see it a little differently.

Imho it's more like ice cream flavors.

Let's say that I like ice with vanilla flavor, then I might like all kinds of new products coming out with vanilla flavour.

Now I might also test out new stuff like bubble gum flavor or a vanilla mochito mix.
But I might still prefer my goold old vanilla flavour.

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Well put, Kordanor! I'm in a similar boat, I always do go back to my favourite but that doesn't mean I always want vanilla flavour. You need a good mix! Your taste might change. Or you no longer can afford the good vanilla (as in, not enough time to play engaging RPGs and looking for quick action-y one like Diablo).

tomasp3n said:

I want opinions on games in the forums, and I like reading discussions. Negative comments without explanations WHY one feels that way is just trolling, as is true fanboyish "BEST GAME EVAAAR" without reasons why one feels that way.

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Sometimes I find it difficult to express my dislike in words or when I express my opinion, some say the reason isn't good enough. Or sometimes I am simply not in a mood to go into too further discussions (I dislike conflict especially after sh*t day at work)

Anyway, I personally found 2 kickstarter games I've played extremely underwhelming - Wastelands 2 and Pillars of Eternity for different reasons - I absolutely hated Wastelands 2 UI and control, which is a huge thing for me, and I disliked PoE for it's blandness, encyclopedia dump and depressing world. I'm hoping both companies will produce better games in future and it is great to hear positive feedbacks on Torment from the Watch. I might pick it up later.

tomasp3n said:

To me, the problem with critique is when it's not nuanced nor constructive, and yes, I do believe the Codex has this problem. If you like something about a game, you're a fanboy blind to the games OBVIOUS shortcomings. There's so much senseless bashing it's hard to find the good comments among all the trash ones. I do think the Watch is better, and I do not agree "naive optimism" is something that's cherised, although some members practice it…

I want opinions on games in the forums, and I like reading discussions. Negative comments without explanations WHY one feels that way is just trolling, as is true fanboyish "BEST GAME EVAAAR" without reasons why one feels that way.

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I've no idea what drivel the codex is whittering about, probably some political crap, but your idea that you've highlighted exactly why this game deserves high praise is a bit laughable while at the same time you've quite aggressively dismissed a lot of genuine complaints people have had.

The entire sum of your praise has been that you enjoyed it, you liked the story, setting and atmosphere and that you liked that you felt what you did in the game mattered. That is literally all the positive points you've made.

While you admit combat is even more tedious than pst, the console versions are likely quite buggy and the game has a lot of cut content and missing stretch goals and that it didn't have as good an emotional impact as pst and the companions were bland in comparison.

The game was sold on the premise of being a sequel of sorts to pst, not a visual novel for people who like visual novels and yet your comparisons to pst and any kind of evaluation as to whether this provides value for a 5+ million dollar product is entirely missing from your 'fair' narrative, even after a lot of posts.

lackblogger said:

game has a lot of cut content and missing stretch goals

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Better to wait for the update that is going to have the 2 missing items, no?

lackblogger said:

I've no idea what drivel the codex is whittering about, probably some political crap, but your idea that you've highlighted exactly why this game deserves high praise is a bit laughable while at the same time you've quite aggressively dismissed a lot of genuine complaints people have had.

The entire sum of your praise has been that you enjoyed it, you liked the story, setting and atmosphere and that you liked that you felt what you did in the game mattered. That is literally all the positive points you've made.

While you admit combat is even more tedious than pst, the console versions are likely quite buggy and the game has a lot of cut content and missing stretch goals and that it didn't have as good an emotional impact as pst and the companions were bland in comparison.

The game was sold on the premise of being a sequel of sorts to pst, not a visual novel for people who like visual novels and yet your comparisons to pst and any kind of evaluation as to whether this provides value for a 5+ million dollar product is entirely missing from your 'fair' narrative, even after a lot of posts.

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Now see here, you called me out on not being clear enough in why I liked the game, and you did it without once calling me bad names, accusing me of being a fanboy, nor insulting my mom. Thank you.

I do not feel I have "agressively dismissed genuine complaints"? Which complaints would that be? I admit the combat is too slow, I admit the story didn't move me quite as much as the one in PS:T, and I admit bugs should be as few as possible in a release? I think inXile should have communicated cuts more clearly and earlier, and I believe that cutting stretch goals attained during a Kickstarter is a bad idea.

Still, I enjoyed the combat. I enjoyed the story, I thought the writing was great, I encountered very few bugs. Would I have preferred it if the cut content was in? Most certainly, because it would have made the game longer and since I didn't want it to end that would have been a good thing.

I still think it was a great experience, mainly because of the things you mentioned, as in writing, atmosphere and C&C. The exact same reasons I love the original PS:T. I could of course elaborate, but this post is already long enough so I'll save it for another time.

And to be clear, I do not believe every post about a negative/positive about a game has to be an essay on the game, quick impressions and general subjective feelings are fine too. What I was referring to was the fact that on the Codex many posters are just throwing insults at each other instead of actually talking in a sensible manner.

Zogar Sag said:

No, because we are sick and tired of these ""successor" games baked on pure nostalgia. None of them can even come close to originals and never will - times has changed!
Instead we want this genre to move forward and evolve, developers must start to think outside of 1997 formula, making games with real roleplaying and c&c.

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Why would anyone want to even try to make games for people like you with that attitude? I'd rather bash my head into a wall than try to design around your defuddled idea of what a great RPG in 2017 would be, esp. if you think a game written in '97 can never be topped. I love P:T but realistically speaking, the game had many faults. I'm sure if you and everyone like you formed a development company, you'd quickly realize that vague ideas of "best RPG evar" isn't actually anything but talk. "Real roleplaying" ok, grab a pen, paper and a few other people, why are you playing RPGs on a computer if you want REAL roleplaying?!

To me, what most bothers me, is the way people... well, the entire gaming fanbase (RPGs included) ended up defaulting to being the very worst of jaded and negative cynical bastards. I mean, I was so god damned angry, jaded and depressed... but, I eventually got thru that horrid point in my life, but it feels like gamers as a whole are stuck in the worst, most cynical pitch black pit of hatred and negativity that I honestly feel real pity for developers that are forced to deal with them one on one without a big Publisher like EA roadblocking the Molotov cocktails.

If you people had had this level of control over the success and/or perception of games from THAT period there would be no nostalgic reimaginings of Baldur's Gate or PS:T because they would've been torn to shreds with walls of hateful negative reviews on Steam and elsewhere. Even then people talked a lot of shit, but most of it is lost in long forgotten forums, making those games seem like they were universally beloved. They were not.

tomasp3n said:

Alright, you are of course entitled to your opinion, but if all there was to the new wave of "successors" was a name and no game that wouldn't actually work. Maybe once in a crowdfunded game (SotA?) but most developers actually have to deliver too. And in my book Larian, inXile and HBS certainly delivers good games. PoE was also good enough for me to have faith in Obsidian still, but to me they have the most left to prove with the upcoming sequel.

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I somehow cant take all these "succesor" games seriously, to me they are more like some quick buck side projects from guys, who once made great games. Sure they deliver something, but comparing to originals, which they try to resemble, they pale out. I think they are somehow lost and realy dont know what made those old games so great anymore, like Pirahna Bites, who tries to remade Gothic again and agian, but always fails, because they dont know what was the real point of succes back then (in my opinion ofc!).
That's why I want those guys better to move forward and cut with making "succesors", but instead work on something new, look out for new horizons

PegasusOrgans said:

Why would anyone want to even try to make games for people like you with that attitude? I'd rather bash my head into a wall than try to design around your defuddled idea of what a great RPG in 2017 would be, esp. if you think a game written in '97 can never be topped. I love P:T but realistically speaking, the game had many faults. I'm sure if you and everyone like you formed a development company, you'd quickly realize that vague ideas of "best RPG evar" isn't actually anything but talk. "Real roleplaying" ok, grab a pen, paper and a few other people, why are you playing RPGs on a computer if you want REAL roleplaying?!

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Hmm I have feeling that you are trying to get this personal. You dont know me, but asume that I am the guy, who writes on forums "this game is shit, fack it", while Im not.
I want RPG gaming to improve, instead of stagnation or go somewhere back, "and make it great again".

Arent we realy sick of the same formulas again and again? Like there is NPC, who stands out at that corner for ever only to give you some meaningless errand quest and after deliver, he continues to stand there, like nothing ever happened.
I know it is realy recourceful and hard to make living worlds, but old games tried to, while modern games take lazy aproach. And we buy it and even defend this modern aproach, thus clearly state that this kind of developing is more than ok for us! Why to make another Morrowind, when you can sell few hours game like Tyranny and then make another "tyranny" and sell it again!?

Thats why I think real and constructive critique is inplace, it only can make games better an it have nothing with hate or bashing!

If we stop support lazy aproach and dont buy these game, maybe industry will start to change finally and move forward.

Zogar Sag said:

That's why I want those guys better to move forward and cut with making "succesors", but instead work on something new, look out for new horizons

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Like No Truce with the Furies perhaps?

luj1 said:

Like No Truce with the Furies perhaps?

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Maybe, though I have little knowledge about that game to say something.