System Shock Review

JDR13 said:

When all else fails, fall back on what someone else said.... as if that solidifies your opinion.

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It's you who distort the original message by insinuating stuff that isn't there.

JemyM said:

It's you who distort the original message by insinuating stuff that isn't there.

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You mean like this...

JemyM said:

Yeah, nostalgia is a great illusion.

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JDR13 said:

You mean like this...

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A reply to yet another of your nonsense comments?

No kindergarten fight, please.

I don't want to take a side in this discussion, but:

Wouldn't it make sense to try a high resolution mod before giving a negative vote based mainly on the graphics? I didn't try this myself, but it was recommended in another thread here.

I played Doom, Heretic, Hexen, Duke3d some days ago using the respective source ports (like Doomsday and eduke32) using new textures and resolutions and enjoyed them very much. I know that you can't compare these games to SS1, but still: If somebody would complain about the graphics of the vanilla games I would laugh at him, because he has no point.

I understand that for new games a reviewer may have the policy to only review unpatched versions in order to have a comparative level for all new games. But when playing an old game, such policy doesn't seem to make sense.

bkrueger said:

Wouldn't it make sense to try a high resolution mod before giving a negative vote based mainly on the graphics

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Like I wrote in my minireview; "I ran with a 1280x1024 hack", which is the mod you mention. My complaint wasn't a resolution problem, but the fact that the limited amount of polygons they had to use for the objects make it difficult to see what in-game areas is supposed to be. To me, this drains some of the immersion away from the game. You can sometimes guess that something is supposed to be an office, or a medical room, but most of the time it just becomes "rectangular corridor" or "square room" with textures on walls. This isn't a problem with the gamedesign, but polygon-limits back when the game was made. But I reviewed the game based on what I thought gamers would look for today, not how good it was back in 1994.

JemyM said:

Like I wrote in my minireview; "I ran with a 1280x1024 hack", which is the mod you mention. My complaint wasn't a resolution problem, but the fact that the limited amount of polygons they had to use for the objects make it difficult to see what in-game areas is supposed to be. To me, this drains some of the immersion away from the game. You can sometimes guess that something is supposed to be an office, or a medical room, but most of the time it just becomes "rectangular corridor" or "square room" with textures on walls. This isn't a problem with the gamedesign, but polygon-limits back when the game was made. But I reviewed the game based on what I thought gamers would look for today, not how good it was back in 1994.

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Oh, sorry, i didn't see that, though I searched for something like that in your post.

Since I do not know the mod I can only speculate, but as you describe it it seems to be a resolution-enhancemnt only, without adding more detailed textures. That doesn't sseem to be sufficient in that case, may be.

By the way, Doom and much more Heretic look still very good today, if you only increase resolution even without new textures. Since System Shock uses the Underworld engine it would be interesting to hear if Ultima Underworld has similar problems as you see them with System Shock?

bkrueger said:

Oh, sorry, i didn't see that, though I searched for something like that in your post.

Since I do not know the mod I can only speculate, but as you describe it it seems to be a resolution-enhancemnt only, without adding more detailed textures. That doesn't sseem to be sufficient in that case, may be.

By the way, Doom and much more Heretic look still very good today, if you only increase resolution even without new textures. Since System Shock uses the Underworld engine it would be interesting to hear if Ultima Underworld has similar problems as you see them with System Shock?

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I'm not entirely sure it's the Underworld engine - at least if it is, it's quite evolved.

Like Doom - only less so - Underworld was a "trick" 3D engine, which is especially evident when you look vertically, as you clearly see textures bend and the engine doing weird things to give the illusion of 3D.

One of the most impressive things about System Shock - is that it was the first "true" 3D environment - only with enemies being sprites. This was way before Quake which is otherwise considered the first true texturemapped 3D shooter - even though it did have the occasional 2D element.

Beyond that - System Shock had a very advanced lighting engine - with stuff like grenades lighting up the environment upon blowing stuff up - and it had a relatively advanced physics simulation with gravity elevators, able to lift objects like landmines and corpses, and levels being fully explorable both vertically and horizontally.

This engine was developed by Looking Glass ON TOP of the game itself being miles ahead of any competition in terms of complexity and depth. There was a time when games at the peak of evolution were developed in 2 years, and they didn't license engines as the rule back then.

bkrueger said:

By the way, Doom and much more Heretic look still very good today, if you only increase resolution even without new textures. Since System Shock uses the Underworld engine it would be interesting to hear if Ultima Underworld has similar problems as you see them with System Shock?

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There are some major differences here. There's almost nothing in DOOM that resembles actual places. DOOM barely have any story or consistency. DOOM doesn't need furnitured rooms for what it tries to be. Have a look at Classic DOOM 3, the shareware levels of DOOM1 remade in the DOOM3 engine. It doesn't have any chairs, tables, plants, or other furniture. Even when re-envisioned with a modern engine there's very little more than empty rooms. DOOM is an actiongame through and through, it doesn't try to be immersive or capture you in an alternate reality.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=woBAUk5hMD8

System Shock though is meant to take place in a spacestation, where each level represent a specific function. There's an actual research level, a security level, a reactor level etc. System Shock would benefit greatly from a new engine, since it would be possible to better present the places that each room is supposed to be.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JC0mSXo0l4Y

bkrueger said:

Since System Shock uses the Underworld engine it would be interesting to hear if Ultima Underworld has similar problems as you see them with System Shock?

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I haven't played UU, but I have a gutreaction to pre y2k 3d graphics. Jedi Knight 1 for example looks terrible, and it's a much later game. The main problem is that it wasn't really possible to create places that looked like more than papercut dungeons back then, which breaks my immersion. Around y2k, human models begun to look human rather than folded paper, and areas begun to look like actual areas. You could tell that "this is a bathroom", "this is a police station" etc without guesswork. It was only then I begun preferring 3d over 2d.

DArtagnan said:

I'm not entirely sure it's the Underworld engine - at least if it is, it's quite evolved.

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Yes, the wikipedia entry says something like this.

DArtagnan said:

One of the most impressive things about System Shock - is that it was the first "true" 3D environment - only with enemies being sprites. This was way before Quake which is otherwise considered the first true texturemapped 3D shooter - even though it did have the occasional 2D element.

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Interesting (only with respect to quake I have to disagree - IIRC it was the first game, which had 3d-enemies, but e. g. Duke3D already had real 3D environment, which allowed to have one room above another room, which Doom didn't).

DArtagnan said:

Beyond that - System Shock had a very advanced lighting engine - with stuff like grenades lighting up the environment upon blowing stuff up - and it had a relatively advanced physics simulation with gravity elevators, able to lift objects like landmines and corpses, and levels being fully explorable both vertically and horizontally.

This engine was developed by Looking Glass ON TOP of the game itself being miles ahead of any competition in terms of complexity and depth. There was a time when games at the peak of evolution were developed in 2 years, and they didn't license engines as the rule back then.

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I agree that these are impressive things and I believe that the story and setting alone make System Shock a gem among games.

On the other hand I can also understand JemyM, because some specific unpleasant detail in the overall experience may already take the fun away so much, that you cannot really get into the game.

I had a similar experience, when trying SS1 some years ago and it was even more basic than graphics: I couldn't stand the missing option for mouse-look. Having to move by keyboard and to interact with objects using the mouse (or to switch between two different interaction modes, which was also required, I believe) made it unplayable for me simply because I couldn't get used to it.

On the other hand I believe as a reviewer you should distinguish between a personal experience, which doesn't allow you to get "into" a game and the objective pros and cons of the game. For example I wouldn't dare to say, that I don't recommend SS1, even if I myself was not able to overcome that interface issue.

bkrueger said:

On the other hand I believe as a reviewer you should distinguish between a personal experience, which doesn't allow you to get "into" a game and the objective pros and cons of the game. For example I wouldn't dare to say, that I don't recommend SS1, even if I myself was not able to overcome that interface issue.

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Your personal opinion might not be personal, so why not mention it? The controls was the second most important reason why I originally dropped the game, to be taken up at a later time. I believe many have had the same problem and the same reason for avoiding it. If there's ever a remake/enhanced mod, fixing the controls might be one of the most wanted features.

bkrueger said:

Interesting (only with respect to quake I have to disagree - IIRC it was the first game, which had 3d-enemies, but e. g. Duke3D already had real 3D environment, which allowed to have one room above another room, which Doom didn't).

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No, Duke3D didn't have true 3D environments. This is specifically related to missing the "vertical plane" so to speak, as it's basically 2.5D not pure 3D. Take a look at Duke3D and then try to look up and down - and what you will see is the illusion of vertical "raising and lowering" of the viewpoint - but in reality, it's still a level 2D plane. It's not about having rooms above one another.

On the other hand I can also understand JemyM, because some specific unpleasant detail in the overall experience may already take the fun away so much, that you cannot really get into the game.

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I have no trouble understanding his reaction, which I why I said he was half-right.

I had a similar experience, when trying SS1 some years ago and it was even more basic than graphics: I couldn't stand the missing option for mouse-look. Having to move by keyboard and to interact with objects using the mouse (or to switch between two different interaction modes, which was also required, I believe) made it unplayable for me simply because I couldn't get used to it.

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SS1 doesn't have interaction modes as such, so maybe you're thinking of SS2 here. But it's true that the game came out before mouse-look was invented - which is why I can cut it some slack in that way. It can only revolutionise so much.

JemyM said:

I have a gutreaction to pre y2k 3d graphics.

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Yes, we noticed that.

JemyM said:

Your personal opinion might not be personal, so why not mention it? The controls was the second most important reason why I originally dropped the game, to be taken up at a later time. I believe many have had the same problem and the same reason for avoiding it. If there's ever a remake/enhanced mod, fixing the controls might be one of the most wanted features.

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More savvy people simply use a key-mapper, then it's not an issue.

JDR13 said:

More savvy people simply use a key-mapper, then it's not an issue.

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No true scotsman fallacy.

Actually that would be a fact, but you can pretend it's not.

JDR13 said:

Actually that would be a fact, but you can pretend it's not.

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You display a completely selfabsorbed personality in which you both pass on your own opinion as "facts" and is incapable of accepting or trying to understand other peoples opinions, instead you respond by frequently deliver insinuated insults out of nowhere. I think you are aware that your behavior is both unfriendly and annoying, which means you are trollbaiting with the purpose of starting a fight.

I am tired of this immature behavior, from now on I will make a habit of reporting you instead of baiting and to not allow you to trash this thread even more I will place you on my ignorelist for now.

JemyM said:

You display a completely selfabsorbed personality in which you both pass on your own opinion as "facts" and is incapable of accepting or trying to understand other peoples opinions, instead you respond by frequently deliver insinuated insults out of nowhere. I think you are aware that your behavior is both unfriendly and annoying, which means you are trollbaiting with the purpose of starting a fight.

I am tired of this immature behavior, from now on I will make a habit of reporting you instead of baiting and to not allow you to trash this thread even more I will place you on my ignorelist for now.

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That's pathetic.

You're simply getting angry because I pointed out a fact that you didn't like, and now you're trying to pull the "Help, I'm being attacked!" routine.

I don't think you're fooling anyone JemyM.

Jaz said:

No kindergarten fight, please.

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What she said.

JDR13 said:

More savvy people simply use a key-mapper, then it's not an issue.

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You want to say that you can repair the missing option of mouse look with a key mapper?