The Battle System I Wish RPGs Would Stop Using @ Sinister Design

Gentlemen, please settle down. What we have here is an old chestnut which has been debated over and over for years now. In an RPG, should combat be based on char skill, or player skill, or both. Rampant Coyote had an article on this a couple of weeks ago. Different people prefer different play styles and WE'RE NOT GOING TO AGREE ON WHICH IS BEST!! Let's therefore agree to disagree on this and leave it at that. :)
 
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People who write articles like this don't realize they're part of the problem. >:|
 
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I'm planning on an article responding to it tomorrow, so I'm glad to be a part of the problem. :) I think it's a valuable discussion to have. Not many minds will be changed. Though I've actually had a couple of changes in view over the years...

But seriously... Craig said in an email to me he expected the article to be flame bait, and while I do take some issue with some of his points and conclusions, I think he brings up a lot of very good ones. I think it's fine to prefer one side or the other. so long as we're not too reactionary and exclusionary.

I'm really not big on the heavily deterministic systems, like Craig's upcoming game. They aren't my thing. I have reasons, but mainly it's a style thing. Doesn't mean I won't have a lot of fun playing his game, though.
 
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It's not a matter of discussing deterministic vs randomized combat systems, it's the smugness of the denouncement and lack of knowledge that leaves me finding the article in bad taste. There are places for both types of systems to be implemented, and both can be implemented well and poorly. Calling it the "D&D Combat System" is also quite misleading, particularly since he primarily uses examples from a >20 year old iteration of the game that nobody plays anymore. Modern players won't even know what THAC0 is. Why does he keep referencing it?

My personal opinions on the matter are that deterministic combat systems cater more to strategy minded gamers and more randomized systems cater to the rest. The combat system referred to in Fire Emblem as being fantastic sounds somewhat boring to me. It sounds like it just turns the combat into a Rube Goldberg machine that you set in motion and watch play out. Randomness adds that element of chance and chaos that, in my opinion, RPG combat needs to be interesting.
 
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I just can't help but think a perhaps "better" article with the same title would have instead focused on other P&P Rulesets into existing RPGs of the past, alongside one's that WOULD make for a good transition(Hint hint some skillful Indies, surely there are some quality lesser known ones that don't have the legal ball-n-chain that currently binds the likes of 3.5/4thed D&D, The Dark Eye, and Shadowrun (Mildly hopeful about the browser MMO stealthily announced awhile back as the wouldbe devs seem to "get it" in large part)..

I have a pet peeve though, when I see a comment about D&D, or even "most P&P" as a blanket statement, being ill suited for videogame conversions---I say nuts to that via the existence of Roguelikes(Incursion is slow burning but getting there) and even things like the Circle of 8 Modding movement for Temple of Elemental Evil. Hell, I'm pretty sure a quality campaign experience could be eventually modded into Frozen Synapse---P&P isn't some magical thing that is untouchable via digital wranglings without horrific corruption or some such.

Besides, RPG's DID stop using 3.5 D&D and earlier----been a fair chunk of years now IIRC. Well, surely he can't be wringing hands at the likes of Incursion and Knights of the Chalice, that'd just be utterly ridiculous...

4th ed's weird Neverwinter thing coming up is an unknown and strange beast to boot, so it seems like a smoke n' fire kind of oddity in a rant in terms of immediacy...
 
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What is the article about?

Examples are fine sometimes.

When sticking to marketing attribution of RPG label by developpers (see for example the case of Deus Ex that is refered as a first person shooter in ratings accessment), what game has not gone away from the DnD model?

It was turn- based and a lot of socalled RPGs are not turn based.

Tactical options? But what tactical options the article writes about? Very hard to see, especially when the article does not tell about single player games or party based games.
The tactical options approach is different. Would be good to see arguments on single player tactics for example.
 
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I'm gonna Delay my comment this turn until I see what his idea of a satisfying combat system is.
 
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The followup article lists a large number of concepts that should be included in tactical combat, yes. But it doesn't really discuss the posters determinism fetish. It also shows a distinct lack of understanding of D&D once again, which makes me roll my eyes a little. This guy needs to actually research what he's arguing against.

The "D&D combat system" (since he INSISTS on referring it to that even though he's talking about something else entirely, I will respond using his language and within his paradigm) contains: character specialization, use of terrain, specialized enemies, directional facing, resource management, multiple attack options, delayed attacks, numerous ranged and melee attacks. The other elements he's discussing are part of encounter design, a game creators task outside of the scope of the ruleset. Not every computer game with a D&D logo slapped on it implements these correctly or even adequately, and in some cases they don't implement any D&D mechanics at all, but there are two examples I can think of that did incorporate larger amounts of these options: KotC and ToEE. Both games have great turn based combat, even if they completely lack in every other area of gameplay. :/

Also, his examples don't add to the "clarity" of tactical combat. His continued referencing of "clarity" is something I have a bit of a problem with in this entire discussion. Let's imagine you are about to fight someone. You and him are standing there, both wearing chain mail, both holding a morning star, circling and planning your first strike. Before you actually engage him, do you get a popup that shows you the percentages of how many times you swing you'll hit? Do you get a marker that shows exactly how much damage you'll do each time you strike? No, you don't. I don't think the player should be given that either. Combat is chaos. It's not orderly, it's not deterministic and it shouldn't be treated as such (once again, IMO). Randomized events can lead to serious shifts in combat and completely unexpected outcomes- something that should be a goal for any game designer. Surprising the player is important, as important as giving freedom and tactical choices. If every combat is pre-scripted and has a deterministic outcome, why bother even playing the game? Why not just watch a video of the game playing itself?
 
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I provoked a certain subsection of the world of RPG enthusiasts by slaughtering a particularly sacred cow: the D&D-style combat system.
If he slaughtered anything it was his renome, the previous article didn´t leave a scratch on the sacred cow.
 
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