Diablo 3 - Patch 1.04 Released

I'm not talking about you, but him and his mistake.

I think he realized his own mistake fairly quickly. ;) Of course, as a public figure with the fastest selling game on his hands, he should have known better than to publicly lash out at a beloved former Diablo developer. Not a smart move. Oh, well.
 
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I think he realized his own mistake fairly quickly. ;) Of course, as a public figure with the fastest selling game on his hands, he should have known better than to publicly lash out at a beloved former Diablo developer. Not a smart move. Oh, well.

He did, but a lot of people were there to help him realise it ;)

Not sure Brevik was particularly beloved - but he might be after this....
 
It's kinda like being a kid at christmas who gets 50 fantastic presents at once, instead of 2 or 3.

You know? I mean, 50 would be more than ten times better, logically.

Only it's not - because we have a pleasure threshold built into us - as human beings. When there's too much to choose from, the impact is much weaker than if you spread out the choices.

Are you saying that we're bombarded with pleasure in Diablo 3? ;) I guess they decided that the average modern gamer spends less time with one game and has a lower attention span than gamers used to have. And they're probably right. They chose the middle way, because it's not pure Diablo 2, but it's also not Uncharted or whatever. There is replayability, but less so than Diablo 2, instead attempting to offer a more intense play-through experience rather than aiming for players to spend thousands of hours on the game over 10 years, like Diablo 2.

I don't know whether they should have. Times do change, just look at how popular Diablo 2 is… it's a dilemma. Cater to old-school fans, or today's gamer, or something in between? This is something in between.

I know you'd be all pure and correct and go 100% old-school and true to the old games' feeling in the name of touchy-feely artistic reasons and integrity. Reality rarely works that way, though, and even you know it. Also, nostalgia goggles.
 
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Are you saying that we're bombarded with pleasure in Diablo 3? ;) I guess they decided that the average modern gamer spends less time with one game and has a lower attention span that gamers used to have. And they're probably right. They chose the middle way, because it's not pure Diablo 2, but it's also not Uncharted or whatever. There is replayability, but less so than Diablo 2, instead attempting to offer a more intense play-through experience rather than aiming for players to spend thousands of hours on the game over 10 years, like Diablo 2.

Yes, we ARE bombarded with the skills in D3 (and yes, that's a lot of short-term pleasure) - and at 60, you can just switch around at will.

Initially, that would make sense to a person without understanding (or appreciation, whichever you prefer) of the nature of long-term appeal.

I mean, why punish people by forcing them to "grind" through the game to try out builds, right?

The problem is that the genre in itself is ALL about "grinding" - if you consider the basic kill, loot, upgrade a grind - and I can assure you that fans of the genre DO NOT consider that a grind.

The criticism of the "old way" - is that the skill system is too punishing for people who don't want to invest in the strategy of planning for a build - and hunting for the loot to match that build.

But the people criticising that way are the people who're not really the core Diablo fans - and it's a big part of why the core Diablo fans are so upset with Diablo 3.

Naturally, if you want to ignore the core fans - and you prefer to keep mainstream players happy in the short-term, that's great. But you're not going to get mainstream players to stay in the long-term. For that, you need core fans.

Again, it's about understanding what you're dealing with - and Blizzard simply didn't.

I don't know whether they should have. Times do change, just look at how popular Diablo 2 is… it's a dilemma. Cater to old-school fans, or today's gamer, or something in between? This is something in between.

No one with any sense would suggest a carbon copy of Diablo 2. That game is ancient - and there are many modern things missing.

I wouldn't want an identical "skill-tree" system. Way too many skills were underpowered and worthless - and it was just constructed without the experience we have today.

I'd prefer something like a talent tree - that, instead of changing the core skill-design, would simply alter your build through passive powers. As in, you'd still have the incentive to customise your character, and you'd still have the incentive to replay the game with the same class - but you wouldn't be overly punished by picking the wrong talents - and Blizzard wouldn't have to change everything at the core.

I know you'd be all pure and correct and go 100% old-school and true to the old games' feeling in the name of touchy-feely artistic reasons and integrity. Reality rarely works that way, though, and even you know it. Also, nostalgia goggles.

I'm sure this is your image of me, as some kind of extreme that you can get a handle on and place in a box. But it's pretty far from what I'm about :)
 
I do understand and kinda miss the way you looked forward to getting a certain skill in the skill tree......just three more levels and I'll have Superheated Icefrost Thunderbolt! Sigh.
 
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I do understand and kinda miss the way you looked forward to getting a certain skill in the skill tree……just three more levels and I'll have Superheated Icefrost Thunderbolt! Sigh.

Yup… The whole "looking-forward-to" build-up and "the-pleasure-is-in-the-journey" is lost after you get your favorite classes to 60. You will NEVER have that feeling with the same class again.

In a story-based game that's designed to be experienced once, or a few times, that would be ok. I mean, a story can only really be enjoyed a limited amount of times before it gets stale.

But Diablo is NOT and never has been primarily about story. It's about a power-trip, basically. A power-trip that can perpetually sustain itself for a surprisingly long time.

As a designer, you're not being very good if you try and curtail the longevity of that power-trip because your - by its very nature - short-term iterative process demonstrated that players really liked having everything easily accessible all at once.

It's like asking that very same child if it wants 50 presents all at once or get them over the course of a few years. All children would want the 50 presents at once, naturally.

I don't mean to suggest that mainstream Diablo players are children, but that they're just like children in terms of their experience with that particularly genre.

By that very same token, the developers behind Diablo 3 are like parents who can't remember their own childhood.
 
I havent fired up this game in a long time. I got SO sick of servers being down, I just finally said screw it I'm done with this. I was going to delete the game but just let it be for a while. So this morning I am reading about the patch and figure, Oh what the hell, my wife bought me the game, at least try it with the new patch and give the game another chance. So I log in this morning, game patches and i go to log in and what happens?? Gee what a surprise. the servers are down. Wasnt intentional knowing the servers were down. I legitimately tried to return to this game. Unreal. Didnt even think twice about deleting the game this time. Gone. Never to return. Any future game that has this SP "feature" will be a no purchase for me, no matter who or what it is.The sacred franchise is one of my favorites but if S3 SP has to be played online, its a no buy for me.
 
I havent fired up this game in a long time. I got SO sick of servers being down, I just finally said screw it I'm done with this. I was going to delete the game but just let it be for a while. So this morning I am reading about the patch and figure, Oh what the hell, my wife bought me the game, at least try it with the new patch and give the game another chance. So I log in this morning, game patches and i go to log in and what happens?? Gee what a surprise. the servers are down. Wasnt intentional knowing the servers were down. I legitimately tried to return to this game. Unreal. Didnt even think twice about deleting the game this time. Gone. Never to return. Any future game that has this SP "feature" will be a no purchase for me, no matter who or what it is.The sacred franchise is one of my favorites but if S3 SP has to be played online, its a no buy for me.

That's unfortunate :(

Would you consider yourself a victim of bad fortune in general?
 
After the internet blew up over all this, I do think Diablo players are children. ;) Anyway, I'm unlikely to play Diablo 3 through more than once, or even finish it at this rate. So to me that's not important, but I can understand how people want it to be the game to play for many years to come...

Personally, I'm already ruined to be able to do that. I used to play for high scores on the Commodore 64 and perfect my playthroughs (which typically lasted around 20-30 minutes anyway, before you were thrown back to level 1 with a higher difficulty) but that sort of gameplay bores me to tears now. Can't do it. Sigh.

Incidentally, to press my point, I just started a new story-based, one playthrough is all you'll want, linear JRPG on PS3 (Tales of Graces). :)
 
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After the internet blew up over all this, I do think Diablo players are children. ;) Anyway, I'm unlikely to play Diablo 3 through more than once, or even finish it at this rate. So to me that's not important, but I can understand how people want it to be the game to play for many years to come…

Personally, I'm already ruined to be able to do that. I used to play for high scores on the Commodore 64 and perfect my playthroughs (which typically lasted around 20-30 minutes anyway, before you were thrown back to level 1 with a higher difficulty) but that sort of gameplay bores me to tears now. Can't do it. Sigh.

Incidentally, to press my point, I just started a new story-based, one playthrough is all you'll want, linear JRPG on PS3 (Tales of Graces). :)

If you think Diablo is about high-scores - then I don't know what to say.

However, I think people should play what they want to play - and I would never advise people to play Diablo if they didn't enjoy being on a power-trip.

However, I might also advise people to not make too many claims about things with which they have limited understanding and experience ;)
 
If you think Diablo is about high-scores - then I don't know what to say.

I did not say that, although I do think I can equate the two. In a side-scrolling platformer, you'd repeatedly play through the levels until they are all you dream about. The dopamine doesn't come from getting your next level or skill, but from going through that difficult part of level 7 without missing any of the jewels or jumping into the flaming barrel because you only have a fucking millimeter to jump on. You ace that and you'll have a chance of beating that previous score where you missed that one fucking breakable stone that brought your score down. That's also a powertrip, especially if you're competing against your brother for the number 1 spot. ;)

Gameplay is different, but you are trying to reach goals and get better. But instead, it's you getting better instead of the stats on your character.
 
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I did not say that, although I do think I can equate the two. In a side-scrolling platformer, you'd repeatedly play through the levels until they are all you dream about. The dopamine doesn't come from getting your next level or skill, but from going through that difficult part of level 7 without missing any of the jewels or jumping into the flaming barrel because you only have a fucking millimeter to jump on. You ace that and you'll have a chance of beating that previous score where you missed that one fucking breakable stone that brought your score down. That's also a powertrip, especially if you're competing against your brother for the number 1 spot. ;)

Gameplay is different, but you are trying to reach goals and get better. But instead, it's you getting better instead of the stats on your character.

Well, if you want to boil down all games with perpetually compelling gameplay to the same thing - including Tetris and World of Warcraft - I can see your point.

Not sure it's terribly useful for understanding the genre, though :)
 
Well, if you want to boil down all games with perpetually compelling gameplay to the same thing - including Tetris and World of Warcraft - I can see your point.

Not sure it's terribly useful for understanding the genre, though :)

Well, my point is, I guess, you're repeating content in order to improve, whether it's grinding or rerolling to try a better build. I don't have the stomach for that anymore. :)
 
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Well, my point is, I guess, you're repeating content in order to improve, whether it's grinding or rerolling to try a better build. I don't have the stomach for that anymore. :)

Yes, it's in order to improve and see the results of that improvement - especially in PvP competitions. To see how far you can take your character, and see if you can outperform your mates or those you compete against. The social element is the key.

In any case, I fully understand why someone wouldn't want to play such a game for extended periods of time. It's not for everyone and that's quite fair ;)
 
Yes, it's in order to improve and see the results of that improvement - especially in PvP competitions. To see how far you can take your character, and see if you can outperform your mates or those you compete against. The social element is the key.

See, and that's what I meant. Improve in order to see the results of that, to see if I can take my time down and/or score up. To beat my brother from the number 1 spot in the hi-score list. Same thing, sort of, 25 years ago. ;)
 
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See, and that's what I meant. Improve in order to see the results of that, to see if I can take my time down and/or score up. To beat my brother from the number 1 spot in the hi-score list. Same thing, sort of, 25 years ago. ;)

Yeah, it's identical - and all fans of Diablo would just as soon play Terra Cresta on the Commodore 64. I mean, trying to beat that high-score is tantamount to killing people in PvP in a loot/progression driven ARPG.

Actually, all games are the same - except for the names. Oh, and some minor color variation of the pixels and that resolution thing.

You're as convincing as always ;)
 
Well, there's this gameplay thing people keep whining about. "It's not an RPG!" So what that it's a Japanese dating sim. You basically do the same thing, anyway. Except with hot Japanese hentai women instead of (usually) fantasy monsters. And instead of killing them, you're trying to bone them. Actually, I think that's where the game industry should head next rather than twitchy action. Everybody likes hot Japanese hentai women. Well, not non-lesbian women. Or gays. Not that there's anything wrong with gays. Except that they don't like hot Japanese hentai women. I'm going to stop now.

This thread has bombed. :(
 
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