Opinion: World building is king

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Sacred_Path

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After reading a lot of Codex threads and realizing the Codex is mostly about combat-centric discussions nowadays, it occured to me that for me, the most important part of RPG design is world building.

Without carefully placed items, atmospheric dialogue and a coherent setting, I won't even care about the combat system. Or puzzles. And the reason why I have a growing backlog of unplayed RPG's from indie/ middle class developers is, frankly, that their world building sucks. It's all faux-European, faux-medieval crap with generic as fuck orcs and dragons. Or else post-apocalyptic games ripping off the original Wasteland.
Nobody seems to ask themselves "why are we doing this?", or rather, the only possible answer is "to have a framework for showing off this neat feature we have". Like roguelike mechanics. Or card game battles. Or rock-paper-scissors elemental combat. The framework, the actual body of the game, is a mere vehicle to showcase a few features that are meant to set the product apart, rather than creating the product from the ground up with the goal of being unique.

Lately I've tried to approach the question "what is a RPG?" by choosing the player's perspective, as in, what motivates the player. And it seems that basically, there are two ways to pull his strings. There's the "world building RPG", where you give the player a world to immerse himself in, via exploration, dialogue or story. Bethesda games fall into this category, but also the original Fallouts, Arcanum or the Ultimas. And the other way lies the "adrenaline driven RPG", where motivation comes from the player's own heightened awareness due to monsters and traps he has to navigate around. Games that rely excessively on this kind of motivation are often sorted into subcategories of RPG's, like ARPG's or dungeon crawlers. And rightly so. Because while any proper RPG will necessarily include some squeezing of the old adrenal glands to create gameplay and drive player agency, too many other genres focus on this kind of motivation as well. It's in the little things, literally, that the RPG genre is at its most attractive, and most distinguishable. And IMO developers need to go back to giving attention to these many little things, much like Richard Garriot did during the evolution of Ultima.
 
I enjoy killing dragons in RPGs... because dragons often provide the biggest reward. I have no interest in simulating actually fighting a dragon in hand-to-hand combat. I enjoy it when an RPG plays with conventions and makes a dragon a pleasant NPC with cool dialogue instead of a structured and planned battle, but I have no interest in every encounter being an NPC mind-fuck.

I agree with you that world building is one of the most important aspects, but you're muddling your own preferred sub-genre of RPG with the concept of "good world-building". You're confusing simulation with immersion, two completely different things.
 
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I enjoy killing dragons in RPGs… because dragons often provide the biggest reward. I have no interest in simulating actually fighting a dragon in hand-to-hand combat. I enjoy it when an RPG plays with conventions and makes a dragon a pleasant NPC with cool dialogue instead of a structured and planned battle, but I have no interest in every encounter being an NPC mind-fuck.

The problem isn't the existence of orcs, elves or dragons. The problem is people not asking why dragons should be in there in the first place, and how they could fit into this particular world with their own unique twist. Treating dragons like a puzzle piece is perfectly ok, it's just that often there is no puzzle but only a clusterfuck of rehashed ideas.

I agree with you that world building is one of the most important aspects, but you're muddling your own preferred sub-genre of RPG with the concept of "good world-building". You're confusing simulation with immersion, two completely different things.

Please elaborate. :)
 
I need you to elaborate first in order to elaborate. What is some good examples of what you mean by "a clusterfuck of rehashed ideas"? What the fuck have you been playing?
 
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I need you to elaborate first in order to elaborate. What is some good examples of what you mean by "a clusterfuck of rehashed ideas"? What the fuck have you been playing?

lackblogger said:
I enjoy killing dragons in RPGs… because dragons often provide the biggest reward.

IOW Any RPG ever.

Dragons are there because they're big powerful bosses with great loot. And everybody knows what they are so you don't have to communicate anything to the player (except perhaps a certain weakness in their armor). They aren't there because they make sense in this world.
 
That doesn't answer my question at all, there's no parallel between dragons providing the best reward and dragons not being part of the lore. In fact, if the dragon is offering the best reward then it's likely that it's highly accurate lore...

As for "any RPG ever" - well... duh...
 
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That doesn't answer my question at all, there's no parallel between dragons providing the best reward and dragons not being part of the lore. In fact, if the dragon is offering the best reward then it's likely that it's highly accurate lore…

As for "any RPG ever" - well… duh…

I've come to despise the word lore in the context of RPG's, because lore loosely means the mortar that's smeared into the holes in the world building. If lore isn't substantiated in any tangible way, it's garbage. Lore can explain the existence and nature of a dragon yet its environments don't reflect the existence of a dragon at all - time and time again I've seen that in RPG's.
 
World-building is very important. Very important. Is it my number one issue in RPGs and how I enjoy them? No, far from it.

Why? Because every RPG is different. Elminage Gothic, which has very simplistic, minimal world-building, in the sense that there isn't a ton of dialogue, you piece together the story yourself and the gameplay is front and center. However,, I LOVE that game.

Morrowind, which has superb world-building front and center, well, I LOVE that game, too.

And then you have roguelikes which really have no story, or at least, minimal story, and very little world-building at all other than the gameplay you're experiencing. And, guess what? There are some damn good roguelikes out there, too.

So, while world-building is very important for some RPGs, other RPGs it doesn't matter as much, and in some cases is really not even necessary for me to enjoy a game that focuses more on gameplay.

Did I make any sense at all? I can't really say "this feature is king" when all RPGs are different and I play many types of RPGs that all have unique and interesting features, but aren't necessarily following the same formula to get there.
 
I've come to despise the word lore in the context of RPG's, because lore loosely means the mortar that's smeared into the holes in the world building. If lore isn't substantiated in any tangible way, it's garbage. Lore can explain the existence and nature of a dragon yet its environments don't reflect the existence of a dragon at all - time and time again I've seen that in RPG's.

And you still haven't named any games where there's dragons where its not logical to have dragons… you just tangent onto a new key-word…
 
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Did I make any sense at all? I can't really say "this feature is king" when all RPGs are different and I play many types of RPGs that all have unique and interesting features, but aren't necessarily following the same formula to get there.

Procedurally generated worlds count too ;)

They often don't make a lot of sense, but actually, the immersive effect is big because players never know exactly what to expect.

The question for me is, what do you get from an RPG with relatively little focus on world building that you couldn't get from a different genre? Super heavy micromanagement maybe in the case of roguelikes.

And you still haven't named any games where there's dragons where its not logical to have dragons… you just tangent onto a new key-word…

It's probably easier if you name an RPG where dragons totally make sense and have some unique, non-rehashed touch.
Did Firkraag make sense in BG2? I don't think so, he was just a big baddy. Could have been a demon or a huge gelatinous cube and no one would have given a rat's arse. Dragons are walking (flying) tropes.
 
And yet you site Betesda games as good examples of world building games... as if bethesda games don't have dragons...
 
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And yet you site Betesda games as good examples of world building games… as if bethesda games don't have dragons…

What they have is great exploration. I'd say Morrowind also had good ecology, never really had that feeling again with any of the newer TES titles. It does have horrible dialogue on the other hand, among other things.
 
World building is very important to me as well. It's one of the reasons I found Witcher 3 so great, and the reason I still enjoy Elder Scroll games, even though the latest incarnations are pretty weak when compared to Morrowind.

But I love some good tactical gameplay as well. But that only lasts for so long as it doesn't become repetitive, while a good world can be expanded upon forever with good writers.
 
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What do you find so immersive and world building about watching a pair of arms slash a sword at a poorly designed wolf then walking through a wood for half an hour before getting stuck in a wall while your head rotates?

Why can't you get immersed in the characters of 4-6 sprites or avatars as they wander about a dungeon? Do you have so little imagination left from your childhood that you need someone to virtually provide virtual reality before you can feel 'in the world'?
 
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Why can't you get immersed in the characters of 4-6 sprites or avatars as they wander about a dungeon? Do you have so little imagination left from your childhood that you need someone to virtually provide virtual reality before you can feel 'in the world'?

While this is a bit of a jest, I actually think you make a really important point here.

I feel like an alien at times, because I honestly approach games with a childhood wonder, excitement and imagination as if I were still a kid. That is why I enjoy so many games and enjoy them at a deep level.

I see a lot of cynical people on here and on other sites. It seems like some have lost that childhood wonder and imagination they once had.

I don't know. The world genuinely blows my mind at times. I often play some game, could be newer or from long ago, and just get giddy with it. I'm like, wow, this game is amazing!! I felt like that in Elminage Gothic to Avernum: Escape From the Pit back to Gothic 1 & 2, Temple of Elemental Evil and more.

I don't know what the solution is, but I think approaching games with a sort of curiosity and wonder can go a long way to your enjoyment of them. It does for me. :)
 
I'm not sure Sacred Path...I found Bethesda games interesting (up to-25 hours), but for the most part poor at cohesiveworld building.
Especially when it comes to placement, logical environment design, ecology and how it's connected through side quests, factions and the main story. However they do a terrific job at "lore" part... I remember playing Morrowind for the first time, and discovering a character from in game books, in the world: Holy shit, it's really you!
Witcher is, pretty much the opposite...weaker at lore, but excellent at all the other aspects.
First Mass Effect was hundred times better at this than it's successors.
 
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This thread is a classic example of overanalyzing.

There's no need to philosophize over why the dragons are there. Just kill them and enjoy it. ;)
 
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