Rithrandil
SasqWatch
Just like how the Democrats tried to steal the election in 2008 with ACORN falsely registering tens of thousands of "voters"?
Expectations for President Obama
- Thread starter Prime Junta
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dteowner
Shoegazer
That's completely different, Rith. The ACORN fraud was independently verified, which I don't believe ever happened with the speculative Ohio allegations. 
Thrasher
Wheeee!
LOL! It's REALLY getting thick in here.
It's been thrown out as nonsense everytime.
Whereas the Repblicans have actively tried to disenfranchise legal voters in Ohio and the midwest.
It's been thrown out as nonsense everytime.
Whereas the Repblicans have actively tried to disenfranchise legal voters in Ohio and the midwest.
dteowner
Shoegazer
link
So then, I've supported mine. Let's see independent verification of yours, big boy.
Independent verification of fraud, just like I said. There's a ton of spin from both sides about the motivations and results of this fraud, but the fraud convictions themselves are an undisputed fact available in the public record.
So then, I've supported mine. Let's see independent verification of yours, big boy.
Last edited:
Thrasher
Wheeee!
This is all just noise, with respect to stolen elections.
In fact a quote from that website "There's no evidence of any such democracy-destroying fraud."
THese cases have not been shown to significantly affect the outcome of the election. Sure voter fraud is bad, but I am referring to fraud that actually made a difference in an election.
I can independently verify that a kid stole candy from a store, but is it relevant, NO.
On the other hand, the massive Ohio voter fraud certainly could have stolen the election.
Well, here's a link to a judiciary commission report on Ohio voter fraud. The Republican controlled Congress let the hearing happen only after forcing the author to say that the report did not put the election in to question, although the text of the report says otherwise.
http://www.verifiedvoting.org/downloads/ohiostatusrept1505.pdf
and summary here
http://www.harpers.org/archive/2005/08/0080696
Key summary quotes from both sources:
"three phases of Republican chicanery: the run-up to the election, the election itself, and the post-election cover-up. The wrongs exposed are not mere dirty tricks (though Bush/Cheney also went in heavily for those) but specific violations of the U.S. and Ohio constitutions, the Voting Rights Act, the Civil Rights Act of 1968, the National Voter Registration Act, and the Help America Vote Act. "
"We have found numerous, serious election irregularities in the Ohio presidential
election, which resulted in a significant disenfranchisement of voters. Cumulatively, these
irregularities, which affected hundreds of thousand of votes and voters in Ohio, raise grave
doubts regarding whether it can be said the Ohio electors selected on December 13, 2004, were
chosen in a manner that conforms to Ohio law, let alone federal requirements and
constitutional standards."
“a wide discrepancy between the availability of voting machines in more minority, Democratic and urban areas as compared to more Republican, suburban and exurban areas.” Such unequal placement had the predictable effect of slowing the voting process to a crawl at Democratic polls, while making matters quick and easy in Bush country: a clever way to cancel out the Democrats’ immense success at registering new voters in Ohio."
"It seemed at times that Ohio’s secretary of state was determined to try every stunt short of levying a poll tax to suppress new voter turnout. On September 7, based on an overzealous reading of an obscure state bylaw, he ordered county boards of elections to reject all Ohio voter-registration forms not “printed on white, uncoated paper of not less than 80 lb. text weight.” Under public pressure he reversed the order three weeks later, by which time unknown numbers of Ohioans had been disenfranchised. Blackwell also attempted to limit access to provisional ballots. The Help America Vote Act—passed in 2002 to address some of the problems of the 2000 election—prevents election officials from deciding at the polls who will be permitted to cast provisional ballots, as earlier Ohio law had permitted. On September 16, Blackwell issued a directive that somehow failed to note that change. A federal judge ordered him to revise the language, Blackwell resisted, and the court was forced to draft its own version of the directive, which it ordered Blackwell to accept, even as it noted Blackwell’s “vigorous, indeed, at times, obdurate opposition” to compliance with the law."
Under Blackwell the state Republican Party tried to disenfranchise still more Democratic voters through a technique known as “caging.” The party sent registered letters to new voters, “then sought to challenge 35,000 individuals who refused to sign for the letters,” including “voters who were homeless, serving abroad, or simply did not want to sign for something concerning the Republican Party.”
"We do know, however, that Ohio, like the nation, was the site of numerous statistical anomalies—so many that the number is itself statistically anomalous, since every single one of them took votes from Kerry. In Butler County the Democratic candidate for State Supreme Court took in 5,347 more votes than Kerry did. In Cuyahoga County ten Cleveland precincts “reported an incredibly high number of votes for third party candidates who have historically received only a handful of votes from these urban areas”—mystery votes that would mostly otherwise have gone to Kerry. In Franklin County, Bush received nearly 4,000 extra votes from one computer, and, in Miami County, just over 13,000 votes appeared in Bush’s column after all precincts had reported. In Perry County the number of Bush votes somehow exceeded the number of registered voters, leading to voter turnout rates as high as 124 percent. Youngstown, perhaps to make up the difference, reported negative 25 million votes."
"In Cuyahoga County and in Franklin County—both Democratic strongholds—the arrows on the absentee ballots were not properly aligned with their respective punch holes, so that countless votes were miscast, as in West Palm Beach back in 2000. In Mercer County some 4,000 votes for president—representing nearly 7 percent of the electorate—mysteriously dropped out of the final count. The machines in heavily Democratic Lucas County kept going haywire, prompting the county’s election director to admit that prior tests of the machines had failed. One polling place in Lucas County never opened because all the machines were locked up somewhere and no one had the key. In Hamilton County many absentee voters could not cast a Democratic vote for president because county workers, in taking Ralph Nader’s name off many ballots, also happened to remove John Kerry’s name. The Washington Post reported that in Mahoning County “25 electronic machines transferred an unknown number of Kerry votes to the Bush column,” but it did not think to ask why.
Ohio Democrats also were heavily thwarted through dirty tricks recalling Richard Nixon’s reign and the systematic bullying of Dixie. There were “literally thousands upon thousands” of such incidents, the Conyers report notes, cataloguing only the grossest cases. Voters were told, falsely, that their polling place had changed; the news was conveyed by phone calls, “door-hangers,” and even party workers going door to door. There were phone calls and fake “voter bulletins” instructing Democrats that they were not to cast their votes until Wednesday, November 3, the day after Election Day. Unknown “volunteers” in Cleveland showed up at the homes of Democrats, kindly offering to “deliver” completed absentee ballots to the election office. And at several polling places, election personnel or hired goons bused in to do the job “challenged” voters—black voters in particular—to produce documents confirming their eligibility to vote. The report notes one especially striking incident:
In Franklin County, a worker at a Holiday Inn observed a team of 25 people who called themselves the “Texas Strike Force” using payphones to make intimidating calls to likely voters, targeting people recently in the prison system. The “Texas Strike Force” paid their way to Ohio, but their hotel accommodations were paid for by the Ohio Republican Party, whose headquarters is across the street. The hotel worker heard one caller threaten a likely voter with being reported to the FBI and returning to jail if he voted. Another hotel worker called the police, who came but did nothing.
"
"Detailed Findings . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 23
A. Pre-Election . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 24
1. Machine Allocations – Why were there such long lines in Democratic
leaning areas but not Republican leaning areas? . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 24
2. Cutting Back on the Right to Provisional Ballots . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 31
3. Cutting Back on the Right of Citizens to Register to Vote . . . . . . . . . . . 36
4. Targeting New Minority Voter Registrants – Caging . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 40
5. Targeting Minority and Urban Voters for Legal Challenges . . . . . . . . . . 43
6. Denying Absentee Voters Who Never Got Their Ballots the Right to a
Provisional Ballot . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 47
7. Denying Access to the News Media . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 48
B. Election Day . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 49
1. County-Specific Issues . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 49
2. Myriad Other Problems and Irregularities . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 63
a. Intimidation and Misinformation . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 63
b. Machine Irregularities . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 65
c. Registration Irregularities and Official Misconduct and Errors . . 67
3. General Problems . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 70
a. Spoiled Ballots – Hanging Chads Again? . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 70
b. Exit Polls Bolster Claims of Irregularities and Fraud . . . . . . . . . 72
C. Post-Election . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 78
1. Confusion in Counting Provisional Ballots . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 78
2. Justice Delayed is Justice Denied – Recounts were Delayed Because of a
Late Declaration of Results . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 79
3. Triad GSI – Using a “Cheat Sheet” to Cheat the Voters in Hocking and
Other Counties . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 81
4. Greene County – Long Waits, the Unlocked Lockdown and Discarded
Ballots . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 87
3
5. Other Recount Irregularities . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 91
a. Irregularities in Selecting the Initial 3% Hand Count . . . . . . . . . 92
b. Irregularities in Applying the Full Hand-Count Requirement . . . 94
c. Irregularities in the Treatment of Ballots . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 94
d. Irregularities in the Treatment of Witnesses at the Recount and
their Access to Ballots . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 95"
Sorry for the massive quoting, but this is just the tip of the iceberg...
In fact a quote from that website "There's no evidence of any such democracy-destroying fraud."
THese cases have not been shown to significantly affect the outcome of the election. Sure voter fraud is bad, but I am referring to fraud that actually made a difference in an election.
I can independently verify that a kid stole candy from a store, but is it relevant, NO.
On the other hand, the massive Ohio voter fraud certainly could have stolen the election.
Well, here's a link to a judiciary commission report on Ohio voter fraud. The Republican controlled Congress let the hearing happen only after forcing the author to say that the report did not put the election in to question, although the text of the report says otherwise.
http://www.verifiedvoting.org/downloads/ohiostatusrept1505.pdf
and summary here
http://www.harpers.org/archive/2005/08/0080696
Key summary quotes from both sources:
"three phases of Republican chicanery: the run-up to the election, the election itself, and the post-election cover-up. The wrongs exposed are not mere dirty tricks (though Bush/Cheney also went in heavily for those) but specific violations of the U.S. and Ohio constitutions, the Voting Rights Act, the Civil Rights Act of 1968, the National Voter Registration Act, and the Help America Vote Act. "
"We have found numerous, serious election irregularities in the Ohio presidential
election, which resulted in a significant disenfranchisement of voters. Cumulatively, these
irregularities, which affected hundreds of thousand of votes and voters in Ohio, raise grave
doubts regarding whether it can be said the Ohio electors selected on December 13, 2004, were
chosen in a manner that conforms to Ohio law, let alone federal requirements and
constitutional standards."
“a wide discrepancy between the availability of voting machines in more minority, Democratic and urban areas as compared to more Republican, suburban and exurban areas.” Such unequal placement had the predictable effect of slowing the voting process to a crawl at Democratic polls, while making matters quick and easy in Bush country: a clever way to cancel out the Democrats’ immense success at registering new voters in Ohio."
"It seemed at times that Ohio’s secretary of state was determined to try every stunt short of levying a poll tax to suppress new voter turnout. On September 7, based on an overzealous reading of an obscure state bylaw, he ordered county boards of elections to reject all Ohio voter-registration forms not “printed on white, uncoated paper of not less than 80 lb. text weight.” Under public pressure he reversed the order three weeks later, by which time unknown numbers of Ohioans had been disenfranchised. Blackwell also attempted to limit access to provisional ballots. The Help America Vote Act—passed in 2002 to address some of the problems of the 2000 election—prevents election officials from deciding at the polls who will be permitted to cast provisional ballots, as earlier Ohio law had permitted. On September 16, Blackwell issued a directive that somehow failed to note that change. A federal judge ordered him to revise the language, Blackwell resisted, and the court was forced to draft its own version of the directive, which it ordered Blackwell to accept, even as it noted Blackwell’s “vigorous, indeed, at times, obdurate opposition” to compliance with the law."
Under Blackwell the state Republican Party tried to disenfranchise still more Democratic voters through a technique known as “caging.” The party sent registered letters to new voters, “then sought to challenge 35,000 individuals who refused to sign for the letters,” including “voters who were homeless, serving abroad, or simply did not want to sign for something concerning the Republican Party.”
"We do know, however, that Ohio, like the nation, was the site of numerous statistical anomalies—so many that the number is itself statistically anomalous, since every single one of them took votes from Kerry. In Butler County the Democratic candidate for State Supreme Court took in 5,347 more votes than Kerry did. In Cuyahoga County ten Cleveland precincts “reported an incredibly high number of votes for third party candidates who have historically received only a handful of votes from these urban areas”—mystery votes that would mostly otherwise have gone to Kerry. In Franklin County, Bush received nearly 4,000 extra votes from one computer, and, in Miami County, just over 13,000 votes appeared in Bush’s column after all precincts had reported. In Perry County the number of Bush votes somehow exceeded the number of registered voters, leading to voter turnout rates as high as 124 percent. Youngstown, perhaps to make up the difference, reported negative 25 million votes."
"In Cuyahoga County and in Franklin County—both Democratic strongholds—the arrows on the absentee ballots were not properly aligned with their respective punch holes, so that countless votes were miscast, as in West Palm Beach back in 2000. In Mercer County some 4,000 votes for president—representing nearly 7 percent of the electorate—mysteriously dropped out of the final count. The machines in heavily Democratic Lucas County kept going haywire, prompting the county’s election director to admit that prior tests of the machines had failed. One polling place in Lucas County never opened because all the machines were locked up somewhere and no one had the key. In Hamilton County many absentee voters could not cast a Democratic vote for president because county workers, in taking Ralph Nader’s name off many ballots, also happened to remove John Kerry’s name. The Washington Post reported that in Mahoning County “25 electronic machines transferred an unknown number of Kerry votes to the Bush column,” but it did not think to ask why.
Ohio Democrats also were heavily thwarted through dirty tricks recalling Richard Nixon’s reign and the systematic bullying of Dixie. There were “literally thousands upon thousands” of such incidents, the Conyers report notes, cataloguing only the grossest cases. Voters were told, falsely, that their polling place had changed; the news was conveyed by phone calls, “door-hangers,” and even party workers going door to door. There were phone calls and fake “voter bulletins” instructing Democrats that they were not to cast their votes until Wednesday, November 3, the day after Election Day. Unknown “volunteers” in Cleveland showed up at the homes of Democrats, kindly offering to “deliver” completed absentee ballots to the election office. And at several polling places, election personnel or hired goons bused in to do the job “challenged” voters—black voters in particular—to produce documents confirming their eligibility to vote. The report notes one especially striking incident:
In Franklin County, a worker at a Holiday Inn observed a team of 25 people who called themselves the “Texas Strike Force” using payphones to make intimidating calls to likely voters, targeting people recently in the prison system. The “Texas Strike Force” paid their way to Ohio, but their hotel accommodations were paid for by the Ohio Republican Party, whose headquarters is across the street. The hotel worker heard one caller threaten a likely voter with being reported to the FBI and returning to jail if he voted. Another hotel worker called the police, who came but did nothing.
"
"Detailed Findings . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 23
A. Pre-Election . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 24
1. Machine Allocations – Why were there such long lines in Democratic
leaning areas but not Republican leaning areas? . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 24
2. Cutting Back on the Right to Provisional Ballots . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 31
3. Cutting Back on the Right of Citizens to Register to Vote . . . . . . . . . . . 36
4. Targeting New Minority Voter Registrants – Caging . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 40
5. Targeting Minority and Urban Voters for Legal Challenges . . . . . . . . . . 43
6. Denying Absentee Voters Who Never Got Their Ballots the Right to a
Provisional Ballot . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 47
7. Denying Access to the News Media . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 48
B. Election Day . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 49
1. County-Specific Issues . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 49
2. Myriad Other Problems and Irregularities . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 63
a. Intimidation and Misinformation . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 63
b. Machine Irregularities . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 65
c. Registration Irregularities and Official Misconduct and Errors . . 67
3. General Problems . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 70
a. Spoiled Ballots – Hanging Chads Again? . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 70
b. Exit Polls Bolster Claims of Irregularities and Fraud . . . . . . . . . 72
C. Post-Election . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 78
1. Confusion in Counting Provisional Ballots . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 78
2. Justice Delayed is Justice Denied – Recounts were Delayed Because of a
Late Declaration of Results . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 79
3. Triad GSI – Using a “Cheat Sheet” to Cheat the Voters in Hocking and
Other Counties . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 81
4. Greene County – Long Waits, the Unlocked Lockdown and Discarded
Ballots . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 87
3
5. Other Recount Irregularities . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 91
a. Irregularities in Selecting the Initial 3% Hand Count . . . . . . . . . 92
b. Irregularities in Applying the Full Hand-Count Requirement . . . 94
c. Irregularities in the Treatment of Ballots . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 94
d. Irregularities in the Treatment of Witnesses at the Recount and
their Access to Ballots . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 95"
Sorry for the massive quoting, but this is just the tip of the iceberg...
dteowner
Shoegazer
Sounds ugly. So, if all this is true, why haven't criminal charges been filed? That's what they do in verifiable cases of voter fraud.
Thrasher
Wheeee!
I don't know. I think the Democrats are wussies too much of the time.
Plus they don't have the dollars to pursue litigation like the rich righties.
As an aside, I think that's another thing that's broken in this country. Justice is only guaranteed when it can be afforded by the rich. And even if it isn't deserved (think OJ). It's all about who can afford the best lawyers.
I think all lawyers should be required to do public service in criminal cases to balance the scales.
Plus they don't have the dollars to pursue litigation like the rich righties.
As an aside, I think that's another thing that's broken in this country. Justice is only guaranteed when it can be afforded by the rich. And even if it isn't deserved (think OJ). It's all about who can afford the best lawyers.
I think all lawyers should be required to do public service in criminal cases to balance the scales.
Rithrandil
SasqWatch
Except for the fact that since the Bush administration and Sarbanes-Oxley rich and powerful CEOs have been thrown in jail in massively huge record numbers, which kind of strikes down that whole "justice is only for the rich" deal. And zomg, that's from an evil corrupt *Republican* president!
Thrasher
Wheeee!
What are you referring too? Has the insanity of of Birther conferences rubbed off on you?
http://blogs.ajc.com/jay-bookman-bl...m-for-the-gop/?cxntfid=blogs_jay_bookman_blog
Take a deep breath, and try to understand scale and relevance. Righteous indignation and a few "poor" CEOs being justly thrown in oh so bad cushy low security prison spas doesn't automatically negate the thousands who have wrongly got off or been chained up because of poor legal representation.
http://blogs.ajc.com/jay-bookman-bl...m-for-the-gop/?cxntfid=blogs_jay_bookman_blog
Take a deep breath, and try to understand scale and relevance. Righteous indignation and a few "poor" CEOs being justly thrown in oh so bad cushy low security prison spas doesn't automatically negate the thousands who have wrongly got off or been chained up because of poor legal representation.
Rithrandil
SasqWatch
Sigh. Did I say I was against CEOs being thrown in prison? No? Did I say I want them to be in club fed? No? Then shut up, becuase I'm tired of your pathetic little diatribes and baseless accusations with nothing to back them up what so ever.
Well how about you look into what the DOJ's been doing since 2002? Of course, you won't, because you're nothing but an ideologue, but we're not talking about club fed, we're talking hundreds of executives and some 90 CEOs being thrown in maximum security prisons for 10, 20, 25+ years to life. But hey, here's a piece from 2004:
http://www.signonsandiego.com/uniontrib/20040808/news_lz1b8fraud.html
What does it say? 500 *convictions* of corporate fraud during 2002-2004, during, guess who? BUSH'S administration. 500 convictions in just two years - I guess that shows the level of corporate greed all Republicans have and how we bow down before our corporate masters and refuse to punish them for wrongdoing, huh? Those 500 convictions ALONE more than make up for any person who have 'been chained up' because of poor legal representation. The harm those 500 people (and the hundreds of following convictions over the years) caused far more damage to society than those people wrongly imprisoned causes. Bush clamped down HARD on the corporate fraud that was allowed to reign supreme during the 90s and the dot com era. Obama's continuing that work, thankfully. I'm guessing you'll also choose to forget that Sarbanes-Oxley was, that's right, put forward during a time of Republican majority! And what were the vote counts? 334-90 in the House, 99-0 in the Senate!
And the birther shit? Seriously dude, how about you have yourself a nice warm glass of shut the hell up. Have I ever said anything remotely similar to "ZOMG OBAMA NOT BORN IN THE US". You're the one here sobbing and slitting your wrists over "hyperbole" ever other damn post and you're the person who relies on it most! You have absolutely no freaking clue what you are talking about. "The rich righties"? Do you forget the huge number of people on the left who are also rolling in cash? Of course you do, because your little pathetic world view would crumble if you ever realized that your side is just as shitty as the right is, if not more so, and if you lost your favorite little punching bag of "the evil rich corporate fascist nazis who hate poor people".
I don't know why I bother with you. I'm beginning to understand what PJ must feel like when he talks to Oxlar.
EDIT: Oh, and here's the Corporate Fraud Task Force's webpage:
http://www.usdoj.gov/dag/cftf/
Started by President Bush, you know, in an attempt to help his corporate buddies steal more money from poor folk.
Here's a list of cases they've filed, too:
http://www.usdoj.gov/dag/cftf/cases.htm
Well how about you look into what the DOJ's been doing since 2002? Of course, you won't, because you're nothing but an ideologue, but we're not talking about club fed, we're talking hundreds of executives and some 90 CEOs being thrown in maximum security prisons for 10, 20, 25+ years to life. But hey, here's a piece from 2004:
http://www.signonsandiego.com/uniontrib/20040808/news_lz1b8fraud.html
What does it say? 500 *convictions* of corporate fraud during 2002-2004, during, guess who? BUSH'S administration. 500 convictions in just two years - I guess that shows the level of corporate greed all Republicans have and how we bow down before our corporate masters and refuse to punish them for wrongdoing, huh? Those 500 convictions ALONE more than make up for any person who have 'been chained up' because of poor legal representation. The harm those 500 people (and the hundreds of following convictions over the years) caused far more damage to society than those people wrongly imprisoned causes. Bush clamped down HARD on the corporate fraud that was allowed to reign supreme during the 90s and the dot com era. Obama's continuing that work, thankfully. I'm guessing you'll also choose to forget that Sarbanes-Oxley was, that's right, put forward during a time of Republican majority! And what were the vote counts? 334-90 in the House, 99-0 in the Senate!
And the birther shit? Seriously dude, how about you have yourself a nice warm glass of shut the hell up. Have I ever said anything remotely similar to "ZOMG OBAMA NOT BORN IN THE US". You're the one here sobbing and slitting your wrists over "hyperbole" ever other damn post and you're the person who relies on it most! You have absolutely no freaking clue what you are talking about. "The rich righties"? Do you forget the huge number of people on the left who are also rolling in cash? Of course you do, because your little pathetic world view would crumble if you ever realized that your side is just as shitty as the right is, if not more so, and if you lost your favorite little punching bag of "the evil rich corporate fascist nazis who hate poor people".
I don't know why I bother with you. I'm beginning to understand what PJ must feel like when he talks to Oxlar.
EDIT: Oh, and here's the Corporate Fraud Task Force's webpage:
http://www.usdoj.gov/dag/cftf/
Started by President Bush, you know, in an attempt to help his corporate buddies steal more money from poor folk.
Here's a list of cases they've filed, too:
http://www.usdoj.gov/dag/cftf/cases.htm
Thrasher
Wheeee!
You really need to re-read my post and try thinking a little harder rather than letting defensive righteous indignation take over. Let me restate in simple words.
I am NOT talking EXCLUSIVELY about CEOs. You went there first, not me.
I am talking about all kinds of injustices. I am concerned however, if you think a few hundred CEOs being jailed for stealing $$ from people is more important than thousands of innocent people being wrongly jailed.
I am NOT talking EXCLUSIVELY about CEOs. You went there first, not me.
I am talking about all kinds of injustices. I am concerned however, if you think a few hundred CEOs being jailed for stealing $$ from people is more important than thousands of innocent people being wrongly jailed.
Rithrandil
SasqWatch
I read your post. You said you can only have justice if you are rich. So I am making the point that the richest of the rich are being thrown in prison for breaking laws at the highest rate ... ever. But guess what? Your reply was still wrong.
So? Once again, your reply was still wrong. Everything I said was factually accurate while you wanted to get another shot in at Republicans because you have some irrational hatred of elephants.
Weren't you the one who called corporate greed "pure evil"?
And yes, it IS more important. How many trillions have been lost? Five? Ten? More, even over the past decade? What about opportunity costs because new products didn't get out and investors lost boatloads of money in giant corporate schemes such as Citigroup? Corporate corruption is far costlier to our society than thousands of "innocent people being wrongly jailed" - especially since you have zero data to show exactly what # of people in prison are wrongly jailed right now.
Thrasher
Wheeee!
Well I have to disagree on that count. Inadequate representation for the unfairly punished I think is more important than money.
But, even so are the folks who let corporate greed destroy our economy really being held responsible? Instead we bail them out for a trillion dollars or more, and they continue to receive outlandish millions in compensation. So no I don't think it's working right.
Where was Bush and his cronies when the ship was going down? Shirking oversight, ignoring problems, and further deregulating.
After the fact punishment is too little too late.
But, even so are the folks who let corporate greed destroy our economy really being held responsible? Instead we bail them out for a trillion dollars or more, and they continue to receive outlandish millions in compensation. So no I don't think it's working right.
Where was Bush and his cronies when the ship was going down? Shirking oversight, ignoring problems, and further deregulating.
After the fact punishment is too little too late.
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Rithrandil
SasqWatch
Then you're wrong, seeing as how you've yet to give any statistics on what % of people in prison are "unfairly punished". It does far less damage to our society than what corrupt business practices do. Trillions lost - that's thousands upon thousands of jobs, retirement funds, pensions, etc: you know, stuff that has lasting effects upon virtually all aspects of society.
And without the bailout/stimulus the country may have imploded. Talked to someone important yesterday who said basically that (and he's a Republican). And yeah, some of them are still running around. But hundreds are now in prison praying they don't drop the soap.
Well, they were throwing people in jail for decades for breaking the law, but if you mean other then that, they were the same place your party was, buddy
Remember, if you're going to whine and cry about stuff, you have to realize your party is *just as guilty*, something you obviously like to ignore.
I don't know what this means, but if you're trying to say punishing the CEOs after they commit a crime is "too little too late", then I think you have the real world confused with Minority Report.
Rithrandil
SasqWatch
Happened about four or five pages ago, and the Republican Party one about twelve pages ago, lol.
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