Henry Louis Gates Jr.'s Arrest

[magerette]

You don't? .

But then I believe we owe other human beings("everybody else") a lot in terms of respect and equality regardless of race, gender, class, etc.

I mean maybe not you personally, but I believe the government SHOULD have paid reparations to slaves. It's too late now because they are all dead, but it might have changed the trajectory of our progress.
...What about us? Yeah we were set free, but often with nothing.

I pretty much agree with Rith's statement above. Lincoln's assassination was a loss that changed the whole ballgame. Slaves freed back then had an incredibly tough life, then and for many years after and forty acres and a mule would have worked for many of them. At least it would have been something. But at this point the people who suffered the most from slavery have already done so and the people who directly caused it are dead. Making society racially positive is what's on our plates now.

...@magerette- The "debt" thing was actually my way of being politic. Perhaps giving in to PC muddied the message. Let's try this--how long are we going to allow the sins of the past to excuse actions of the present? Nobody's denying the racial injustices of the past, but it's been 2 generations since the civil rights movement "won". I'm consistent, too, since I don't tend to validate Jewish excuses 3 generations after the Holocaust, either.

Yes, I kind of grasped that --but I wasn't speaking out of the famous 'liberal guilt syndrome.' I don't feel that guilt particularly since I believe I only have to be responsible for my own thoughts, beliefs and actions. I was just trying to make a point about people being who they are. I don't condone excuses and victimization, but I just don't see how what Gates or the cop did can be separated from who and what they are. That doesn't in my mind make either of them racists. A racist is a bigot in all things, and always a victim, always pushing fear and mainlining the drug of willful ignorance.

..snip..
Ultimately, the stance on your side is that Gates' misbehavior should have been ignored by Crowley because his "black experience" somehow merits him a broader scope of acceptable action.

Not really, not in the way I think you mean. If a white man verbally abused a cop of any race in his own home in the same situation but without the racial epithets I'd feel about the same way about the incident. The 'black experience' part is what came out when the testosterone began to flow on Gates' end , and the handcuffs came out on Crowley's. I think both are predictable results of men of their cultures and experiences losing their tempers in the situation, and maybe an indication of general racial tension, but not that either person is a died-in-the-wool bigot. For that you look at their whole lives, and I think they've both been exonerated of that charge.

...So all these people defending Gates by claiming racial bias are, in fact, being hypocritical. You know how I get with hypocrites.

Some are, I agree, Some of the commentators I've heard have definitely gone that route and played not just the race card but the whole victim deck. But I wasn't, I hope.

 

[Prime Junta]

I'd be keen to hear the friendly neighborhood fascist take on this case:

[ http://rawstory.com/blog/2009/08/video-ohio-cop-bodyslams-knife-wielding-grandma/ ]

In brief, an octogenarian woman with Alzheimer's was wandering around a parking lot with a knife. The cops body-slammed her to the ground hard enough to draw a significant amount of blood.

FWIW, I believe that excessive force was used, knife or not, and police who can't resolve such a situation without that kind of force have no business being on the streets.

 

[JDR13]

...I'm getting nothing when clicking on that link.


*Edit* I found the story, here's another link with actual video footage.

http://www2.nbc4i.com/cmh/news/loca...ndled_knife-wielding_grandma_correctly/20258/

It was in fact a single (female) cop that subdued her. It's hard to say if excessive force was used in this case, considering the circumstances. The video sheds a little more light on what actually happened.

 

[Prime Junta]

Strange, works for me.

Video here:

[ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8xW_...ife-wielding-grandma/&feature=player_embedded ]

Quoting a part of the article:

On the night of August 1, at a Whitehall, Ohio Walmart, Virginia Dodson could not remember why she was sitting alone in a car. Coming to grips with her enclosed environment, it dawned on her that she did not know how to unbuckle her seat belt either. Panic began to take hold.

Her solution was to scrounge up a steak knife and cut through the straps, eventually finding her way into the confusing world of the parking lot, still wielding the blade.

Virginia, an 84-year-old African American, has Alzheimer's disease. Like many other sufferers, the responsibility for her care fell to her adult child. Her daughter, however, was inside the store.

It was only a short matter of time before the police were called.

As she wandered the parking lot calling her daughter's name, she was approached by a white, female officer who clearly ordered her to drop the weapon. She did not.

What happened next was captured on video and uploaded that same night to YouTube by user "mainetaine187," who says on camera as the scene escalates, "We gotta get real footage of this shit, haha!"

 

[dteowner]

Disclaimer- I got the video to play here at work, but I had to keep the sound off so I didn't get busted. If there's audio evidence that changes anything, I won't know until tonight.

First off, let's deal with the pools and pools of blood. Old people have very thin skin. The phrase "paper-thin" is actually very appropriate since their skin will actually tear like paper (I'm told taking a bandaid off someone's arm can be a 30 minute exercise in order to prevent skin tears). Additionally, don't nothing bleed like a scalp wound. Moral of the story, this lady could have laid her head on a pillow and come up with a skin tear that would bleed all over the place. Inconclusive evidence of excessive force.

Next up, let's consider the surroundings. In the video, the lady walks right next to a couple shoppers. She's got a knife. Conclusive evidence of danger to the public.

Next, threat to the officer. The lady appears unresponsive, which means the officer has no way of determining if this lady is seriously crazy, having a bad drug interaction, or merely dangerous to herself. The lady walks directly toward the cop. She's got a knife that she has refused to put down. Conclusive evidence of potential danger to the officer.

Next, the takedown itself. The camera goes wonky right at the critical moment, but it looks like the officer grabbed the arm holding the knife and gave it a twist, probably followed by a hip toss or some such. Too much? It's certainly not a flying dropkick from the top turnbuckle. You've got two goals in that situation--get her on the ground and get the knife out of her hand. Looks like both of those requirements were met with a minimum of excess, but that's a judgment call.

Overall conclusion? Like the one guy in the article says--it's a public relations nightmare, but the officer handled the situation very well. Give her a commendation. Maybe next time Granny won't be left unattended in a car within reach of a 8-10" steak knife.

But let's turn the tables, shall we? What's the right answer, since you apparently don't agree with the officer's choices. Talkie talkie wasn't working. If the lady is a nutjob and cuts herself while you're talking, you get hung by the public. If the lady suddenly feels threatened and takes a swipe at a passing shopper while you're talking yourself blue in the face, you get hung by the public. If you knock her down but don't get the knife, you get a trip to the hospital. Waiting for the guys with the white jacket with the extra long sleeves isn't an option because you don't have time to wait, plus they're going to have the same problem dealing with an armed unknown that you do. What's your better answer?

 

[Prime Junta]

Thought so, thanks. I'll keep trying.

(As to my solution? Herd the people being "threatened" (they didn't seem too scared, btw) to the side, and keep talking to Granny. She's 84. They don't run that fast -- nor stab that hard, for that matter. Bottom line, IMO a frail woman of 84 would only constitute a genuine threat to the public if she was carrying a gun rather than a steak knife. Proportionality again.)

 

[dteowner]

"Talkie talkie wasn't working. If the lady is a nutjob and cuts herself while you're talking, you get hung by the public."

That poor old lady! Damn near cut her leg clean off with that steak knife. I can't believe that cop just stood there talking to her and let her hurt herself like that. Hell, she's 84 years old and probably just mixed the wrong meds. The cop could have knocked her over with a strong breath and taken the knife away from her before she hurt herself. Someone get the tar and feathers. Heartless, lazy bastard of a cop.

Potentially, you fail, Captain Talkie.

 

[vanedor]

Sheez, that woman was no threat to anyone except to herself. If the cop had waited a few more minutes, the woman's daughter would have been back and she would have peacefully returned to her car.

 

[dteowner]

I guess the police in Ohio only recruits psychics, eh? How would the officer have any knowledge of the daughter's existence, let alone her approximate return time? That's exactly the problem--y'all indict the cop based on information that the cop didn't have and couldn't be expected to have.

 

[Squeek]

Sheez, that woman was no threat to anyone except to herself. If the cop had waited a few more minutes, the woman's daughter would have been back and she would have peacefully returned to her car.

You have to wonder why common sense and compassion didn't occur to this police officer. Why didn't she imagine other, better alternatives to manhandling that old lady?

Like Gates, this victim was old, black and walking with a cane. Each police officer was white and ended up calling for backup. And like the Gates episode, this is also a disgrace.

This police officer should turn in her badge. She might want to consider career opportunities in professional wrestling instead.

 

[Squeek]

I guess the police in Ohio only recruits psychics, eh? How would the officer have any knowledge of the daughter's existence, let alone her approximate return time? That's exactly the problem--y'all indict the cop based on information that the cop didn't have and couldn't be expected to have.

Oh, yeah...she drove herself there.

 

[Rithrandil]

Old women can't drive cars?

I agree with dte, though, and once again, why are you bringing race into this?

Yes, she's an old woman. But she does have a knife. She's not responding. It doesn't take that much force to injure someone with a knife, or herself.

 

[Prime Junta]

Potentially, you fail, Captain Talkie.

What if she had cracked her skull on the pavement so hard that it would've been brain tissue on the pavement instead of a bit of blood? Old bones are fragile, you know. Oops.

IOW, if we're talking about what potentially could have happened, your Kaptain Krunch approach isn't without its risks either.

 

[Prime Junta]

Yes, she's an old woman. But she does have a knife. She's not responding. It doesn't take that much force to injure someone with a knife, or herself.

She's also not threatening anyone, nor within range to injure anyone other than herself with it. She's just holding the knife, she's calling for her daughter, and she's clearly distraught and confused.

As to the race angle, I'm sorry, but I can't help thinking that the cop just might have acted differently had she looked like this instead:

 

[dteowner]

This police officer should turn in her badge. She might want to consider career opportunities in professional wrestling instead.

You can't possibly be serious. Please tell me you're just being silly.

Oh, yeah...she drove herself there.

Ummm, she walked? Addled old biddie goes wandering around town--never heard that story, have we. Again, the officer has no way of knowing.

What if she had cracked her skull on the pavement so hard that it would've been brain tissue on the pavement instead of a bit of blood? Old bones are fragile, you know. Oops.

IOW, if we're talking about what potentially could have happened, your Kaptain Krunch approach isn't without its risks either.

And yet, somehow that training resulted in a largely safe takedown before anyone got hurt. It's almost as if that officer knew what she was doing, eh? Whooda thunk.

She's also not threatening anyone, nor within range to injure anyone other than herself with it.

A point which you have neither addressed nor conceded.

As to the race angle, I'm sorry, but I can't help thinking that the cop just might have acted differently had she looked like this instead:

You've got to be kidding me. Talk about digging for an issue.

 

[vanedor]

I guess the police in Ohio only recruits psychics, eh? How would the officer have any knowledge of the daughter's existence.

She didnt have to be aware of her existence. The facts just demonstrated that she was no threat to anyone. Just look at the other people in the parking. There was no urge to jump on the old woman to disarm her a what... a big 10 or 20 seconds after arriving on the scene? Sheez. Was the cop late for supper or something? Old people, as you mention, are terribly fragile. Doing a physical intervention require you to be extra-careful. She hadnt. I believe she deserves to lose her badge for a least a few weeks .

 

[dteowner]

Dollars to donuts you bozos would be at the front of the parade calling for the officer's head for "standing there doing nothing" had the old lady cut herself, or some innocent bystander.

Y'all should be ashamed of yourselves. Would you have held a vigil if the cop got stabbed doing her job? Hell no, that's just a risk of the job, right? Hypocrites. Absolutely disgraceful.

 

[Squeek]

Ummm, she walked? Addled old biddie goes wandering around town--never heard that story, have we. Again, the officer has no way of knowing.

Here's a crazy thought: She might have made an effort to find out. You know, she might have tried to communicate with her before resorting to violence? Might have invested a minute or two?

Your standard for police behavior seems befitting for police dogs more than people, dte. Yours too, Rith. But shouldn't we expect more of human beings? What's wrong with them using their intelligence in order to try to reach better outcomes?

"Lassie's trying to tell us something! What is it, girl?" If only cops were as smart as Lassie, I guess. Oh, brother.

Who has the higher opinion of cops in this thread, I wonder? Those of you who keep explaining how cops can't possibly understand what's really happening or those of us who think we can expect them to be able to reach obvious conclusions?

 

[dteowner]

Strangely enough, the articles both say the lady was unresponsive to all communication. I guess that doesn't count as an effort if it's a cop doing it, eh?

 

[magerette]

Remind me to take all the steak knives out of my car.

Looks like a crazy situation to me, but of course, maybe that neighbrhood is rife with crazed, knife-wielding Alzheimer's victims preying on the local populace or something.

Disarm the woman if you have to by grabbing her bird-boned wrist and twisting it, but slamming a confused 84 year old weighing ninety-five pounds to the pavement seems nuts to me. I don't hate cops, though, or think the woman needs to be fired--a little more training might be good.