Bioshock 2 - DRM Madness @ ActionTrip

[JDR13]

Why shouldn't you?

I can understand people complaining if they are forced to buy some third party software in order to play a game you've already paid for, but Windows Live is free. If you already have an Xbox with an Xbox Live account, you can use the same login and any achievements you earn in the Windows game gets added to your total account (if you're into that sort of thing).

Whether or not it's free is not the point, people shouldn't be forced to have an account just to play a single-player game.

 

[fatBastard()]

It doesn't matter that it's free. I just don't want to install lots of junk on my computer in order to play a game.

But you wouldn't mind installing PhysX drivers, .NET version whatnot, DirectX XX or C++ Runtime libraries if the game required it, would you?

When Windows Live isn't running it is no different from any other program, like Word, your browser, your email client or even Steam.

I guess I just don't see what the big deal is. Unless of course it is merely the good ole fear of change

 

[fatBastard()]

Whether or not it's free is not the point, people shouldn't be forced to have an account just to play a single-player game.

But how is that different from Dawn of War 2 or Modern Warfare 2 that requires that you have a Steam account?

 

[JDR13]

But how is that different from Dawn of War 2 or Modern Warfare 2 that requires that you have a Steam account?

I wouldn't know, I don't have a Steam account, and I also don't recall comparing the two. All I know is that it's ridiculous to intentionally cripple in-game functions for players who just want to play single-player without logging in.

 

[Gorath]

But you wouldn't mind installing PhysX drivers, .NET version whatnot, DirectX XX or C++ Runtime libraries if the game required it, would you?

Neither of those asks for personal information nor tracks user behaviour.

I guess I just don't see what the big deal is. Unless of course it is merely the good ole fear of change

Not fear. Knowledge. Data is worth money. The more personalised, the more money it's worth and the more harm can be done with it. A simple example: You apply for a job, the guy on the other side of the desk googles your name and finds the colourful pictures from that great birthday party with the boys. Result: You're out. Something like that happens every day.
*I* want to decide who gets which infos about me, period.
All the publisher of a SP or simple MP game needs to know about me is that I have paid 50 bucks. If he wants to know more he can ask. Maybe I'll answer, maybe not. But I want to have the choice.

 

[fatBastard()]

Not fear. Knowledge. Data is worth money. The more personalised, the more money it's worth and the more harm can be done with it. A simple example: You apply for a job, the guy on the other side of the desk googles your name and finds the colourful pictures from that great birthday party with the boys. Result: You're out. Something like that happens every day.
*I* want to decide who gets which infos about me, period.
All the publisher of a SP or simple MP game needs to know about me is that I have paid 50 bucks. If he wants to know more he can ask. Maybe I'll answer, maybe not. But I want to have the choice.

Windows Live requires an email account for verification and that's it. Everything else can be utterly bogus info if you like. In fact I've entered more personal information in order to get this RPGWatch account than I've offered for my Windows Live account.

I'm not saying that one shouldn't be careful about what info to put on the internet, but it sounds a bit paranoid to go bananas over an email account ... but to each his own I guess.

 

[you]

Well i don't like gfwl because it is very inefficient and buggy and now requiers that you have the version attached to the store crap that ms just launched (typical msft bundling approach).

I often wonder why developers use windows live (i.e, does MS pay them to do such or does it save them years of development or ???) but this is one system I hate being required to use do to past issues with it. Steam occasionally spin and that annoys me to but the usage is optional for most games and other than an occasional spin it is not too intrusive (though sometimes the lumping of 'ads' with 'news' is annoying).

 

[Thaurin]

I have no problem with any information I put on the internet. I feel that it signals a personality problem when you're afraid of doing so. In any case, worrying about these little secrets about yourself is slowly killing your mind and making you feel worthless. Why work for a boss that makes his decisions on shallow information and probably is hypocritical about such behaviour in the first place? So you can go to your lousy job each day and hate your boss? For that matter, I stopped using the word 'boss'. I'm not a dog.

 

[Gokyabgu]

It doesn't matter that it's free. I just don't want to install lots of junk on my computer in order to play a game.

I am totally agree with you.

 

[Alrik Fassbauer]

A simple example: You apply for a job, the guy on the other side of the desk googles your name and finds the colourful pictures from that great birthday party with the boys. Result: You're out. Something like that happens every day.

A recent - and real ! - example is that Amazon blocked a father from ordering stuff from them, because the friend of his daughter still had an open bill !

This is real ! It appeared in one of the last issues of the German magagine called "c't".

Another example is what's called "Geo-tagging" : Banks check whether you live in an area full with socially challenged people - if you're in it, then you don't get credits anymore … Because the banks believe you aren't trustworthy anymore … This is also real, because I read in a newspaper about someone having moved in such an area which was considered "socially challenged" by the banks … Before that, he still got credits when he needed some.

 

[txa1265]

I look at it this way - I see Steam as a service I get digital games from, and can optionally link games into. As soon as I a required to link a retail game to steam I have a problem. Similarly, I will accept the trend of online activation (not happily, though) but anythjing that I have to install just to play an offline game is a problem. I don't install XFire to play single player FPS, why should I need GfWL now?

 

[fatBastard()]

Suit yourselves people, just don't expect this trend to go away. On the contrary. As day 1 DLC, as seen in DA:O and soon ME2, will become more and more widespread, it will also become increasingly necessary to stay logged in to some service, be it GfWL, EA, Steam or whatnot in order by play your game with DLC content.

Judging by my experience with DoW2 I must say that I can think of far worse things than using GfWL, but apparently that's just me.

 

[Gorath]

I have no problem with any information I put on the internet. I feel that it signals a personality problem when you're afraid of doing so. In any case, worrying about these little secrets about yourself is slowly killing your mind and making you feel worthless. Why work for a boss that makes his decisions on shallow information and probably is hypocritical about such behaviour in the first place? So you can go to your lousy job each day and hate your boss? For that matter, I stopped using the word 'boss'. I'm not a dog.

In case you don't know: This stuff is taught at universities in data security courses (and nowadays even in economics). Having to sit through such a course for a whole semester was quite the eye-opener. You don't need much data to identify a specific person in an anonymous mass. The example used was the last German population census in 1987. You need only 7 (!) characteristics to identify one person in a population of 65MM.
The collection of data and the combination of different data pools (simple example: MySpace uses eBay data) is a huge threat and a very cynical business. It's done systematically and with enormous amounts of money behind it. A harmless example: A supermarket tracks user purchases through barcodes. This gives them anon shopping baskets. Now they also use a member card (1% rebate, yadda yadda). Suddenly the purchases are no longer anon. They know the person behind the purchase and they can analyse it. Multiply this with the data from all companies belonging to the same group. It helps them optimise their flow of goods and the marketing they bring in front of your eyes. This happens now, every day. And it's only the beginning. Powerful business groups are working in the background to push it forward. It's all well documented, they're working on standards and lobbying.

IMHO you cannot overestimate how much data is collected and what can be done with it in the long run. Companies like Google, MS and MySpace collect and save everything they can. And it's no conspiracy, just forward-thinking cynical business. User data is a resource. Resources can be used, resources are valuable, and they hand power to the one who controls them. Again, all this is documented and taught at universities all over the world. Definitely neither speculation nor rocket science. Just new opportunities being explored because it has been found out that the flow of information is a siginificant source for business optimisation - if not the biggest remaining.

 

[Brother None]

It doesn't matter that it's free. I just don't want to install lots of junk on my computer in order to play a game.

It's a pain, but with Microsoft pushing for it I kind of get why some publishers opt to just take the brunt of it.

When I played GTA IV on the PC, I had to have Steam, Games for Windows Live and Rockstar Live (or whatever it was called) running just to play that game.

I'm not a big fan of it, but it's not a deal-breaker for me. I understand people who say it is, but on the other hand, don't expect it to go away anytime soon. I'm kind of surprised GfWL is still around considering what a piece of junk it is, but with enough corporate backing, that's just how it works.

 

[Yeesh]

I don't see why they can't just go back to the old map overlay from Starflight. Now that was good DRM.

 

[skavenhorde]

When I played GTA IV on the PC, I had to have Steam, Games for Windows Live and Rockstar Live (or whatever it was called) running just to play that game.

When I had to go online save my game I was not pleased. I had assumed that the only way to save my game was to be online, but after that initial online save I could save whether I was online or not. Sure it is annoying, but I can live with getting online once to save. It's not like I don't get online every time I play a Steam game.

The thing that gets me with this is they have all that junk and a five install limit. So now even though I have jumped through all those GFWL and steam hoops they still want more. I'd like to know how exactly they are going to do that with Steam.

This is every system acquirement from Steam:

Minimum:
o OS: Windows XP, Vista, Windows 7
o Processor: AMD Athlon 64 Processor 3800+ 2.4Ghz or better, Intel Pentium 4 530 3.0Ghz Processor or better
o Memory: 2GB
o Graphics: NVIDIA 7800GT 256MB graphics card or better, ATI Radeon X1900 256MB graphics card or better
o DirectX®: DirectX 9.0c
o Hard Drive: 11GB
o Sound: 100% DirectX 9.0C compliant sound card or onboard sound
o DRM Information: SecuROM offers unlimited activations on up to 5 PCs.

Recommended:
o Processor: AMD Athlon 64 X2 5200+ Dual Core 2.60Ghz, Intel Core 2 Duo E6420 Dual Core 2.13Ghz
o Memory: 3GB
o Graphics: NVIDIA 8800GT 512MB graphics card or better, ATI Radeon HD4830 512MB graphics card or better
o Other Requirements: Initial installation requires one-time internet connection; Ability to save game, earn achievements, receive title updates and online play requires log-in to Games for Windows LIVE; software installations required including Microsoft Visual C++2008 Runtime Libraries, Games for Windows LIVE client, Games for Windows LIVE Client Patch, Sony DADC SecuROM, Microsoft DirectX.

I don't see why they can't just go back to the old map overlay from Starflight. Now that was good DRM.

I sorta miss that copy protection. With Sword of Aragon you had to find the name of a city on the map. I didn't mind that at all.

I didn't care for the 'find the word in the manual' kind of copy protection that were in the gold box games. For Dragonlance they made you do it over and over again depending on how many times you saved. That became annoying really quickly.

 

[Brother None]

I didn't care for the 'find the word in the manual' kind of copy protection that were in the gold box games.

Such copy protection, like RNGs, the internet has long since made useless, for even the most casual of pirates. DRM isn't about making piracy impossible, it's about slowing it down, and then making it really annoying for end-user (hence the busted copies being spread to torrent sites too).

 

[ToddMcF2002]

I love how people complain about everything. Just install the crap and play. Big deal. I'm not going to miss out on dozens of hours of gaming greatness because of protection measures. If you are going to blame anybody try the warez community.

 

[JemyM]

Uhm:
1. They know something the market don't
2. They are completely out of touch with the market
3. They have been convinced by a successful salesperson to buy these "anti-piracy" solutions
4. They are supporting piracy

 

[JemyM]

If you are going to blame anybody try the warez community.

When you begin to blame humanity for lost sales, it's time to close down.