Bethesda Softworks - Elder Scrolls MMO Rumours

[bemushroomed]

DArtagnan, what you mean is that they're very addictive, to some people. They end when you choose to otherwise. You could say that the TES games never ends either, since there are thousands of mods, and new are coming out, every day, and you can make your own quite easily too, something you can keep doing forever.

I had a lot of fun with WoW, socialy and as a strategic team based RPG game it was really fun and well made game, i don't regret the 1 year or so that i played it.. but its not the experience i want with a TES game.

 

[DArtagnan]

DArtagnan, what you mean is that they're very addictive, to some people. They end when you choose to otherwise. You could say that the TES games never ends either, since there are thousands of mods, and new are coming out, every day, and you can make your own quite easily too, something you can keep doing forever.

I had a lot of fun with WoW, socialy and as a strategic team based RPG game it was really fun and well made game, i don't regret the 1 year or so that i played it.. but its not the experience i want with a TES game.

I didn't say it was a problem for everyone, so I'm not sure I see your point.

Did you really think I meant everyone was automatically addicted?

TES games might not end, as you say, but generally most people stop playing them after a number of hours because there's no social setting to make anything consistent and developer content is limited. Basically, there isn't anyone around to take notice of your accomplishments and as such the sensation that you've achieved something meaningful is limited. The social dynamic of an MMO is probably what makes them so deceptively "meaningful". Of course, I can't decide what's meaningful for anyone else - but I certainly don't think they represent any kind of worthwhile effort when I consider time spent vs. reward received. That's what I think is the problem with the entire formula. I don't care what they do to cover it up, it's still limited content stretched as far as it can be.

MMOs, again, is something entirely different than a singleplayer game.

The fact that you and many, many others didn't have a problem doesn't mean they're not addictive and very dangerous to certain personalities.

 

[skavenhorde]

But no no, you're getting me all wrong here

There's a big difference between singleplayer games and MMOs. I know some people don't "get it" and think it's negligible - but it's absolutely vital and essential.

Singleplayer games END. MMOs don't.

Movies end, books end, dates end, dinner ends, walking ends, kissing ends, making love ends, and so on.

When something ends, you generally go do something else. It's sort of a natural rhythm. You start something, experience it, finish it - and that's a memory. That's a learning experience. You can reflect and progress.

MMOs don't end. You have to stop and not start again. They're based on you paying for them for as long as they can make you pay. But developers are human, and they can't recreate the game constantly, so it's not like singleplayer games where you experience something new in a new game. No, they have to stretch the content and make you work for months for what would take hours to achieve in a singleplayer game. They have to make you believe in the carrot. They have to make you believe that your time is worth those new pixels with a new text on them.

Nah, the genre is busted, imo.

Ok, I understand what your getting at now and agree. The carrot is always on that stick just right out of your reach. They never reach their goal and have to keep chugging along to keep trying to get that damn carrot. So yes, in a very strange way, mmos are a little like a drug addiction in that you are always on the prowl for the next fix.

There are some people who can handle it and others who can't. That is pretty much life as we know it. That is why I brought up all those basic things like working, paying the bills and causing no harm. If they do all of those things then they can handle their life (if it makes them happy) for the others who drop everything and stop living in the real world (at least enough to do what needs to be done) then they are the ones that need help. That's what I believe you were saying in the first place.

It is just wrong saying an mmo addict is the same as a drug addict (that was my original complaint with Jemmy's post. I'm not saying that you are doing this) Those are entirely two different beasts. MMOs might have some things in common with drug addicts, but still it's not even close to being the same thing.

 

[JemyM]

I think DArtagnan make most of the points I would make.

Like I said I made a job in psychology on gaming addictions and I analyzed different addictions from multiple perspectives. There are many reasons for addiction, some of the most noteworthy ones are;
1. tranquilizer, escaping from angst
2. filling needs
3. feeling a rush

The first question is if the addiction is an addiction in itself or a symptom of something else. Angst in your real life for other reasons might result in trying to escape into the addiction. The game isn't drawing the individual to it, it's rather a safe haven. Trying to stop their addiction by taking away the computer or something like that may have severe consequences because you take away their medication.

Similar to this is the needs. A MMO offer a job for an unemployed. An opportunity to gain ranks, status and reputation for a loser. Friends for one who never got friends. Sex (virtual) for someone who never got sex etc. The virtual life will thus become the individuals life, which unfortunately means that the issues in the real life remains and nothing is done to fix that problem.

Then we have the rush. People may have addictions to their own hormones. Some people have a rush for adrenaline which means they get a rush out of virtual violence. Some have a rush for dopamine which means they get a rush out of achieving something great. There are other kinds of hormones the game can give and the addicted seek this "fix".

But then there are plenty who begin to play the game like a normal game and find it very fun. They try the content which is usually designed to keep the gamer in place for hours upon hours. This game absorbs the player over time so that they spend more and more time with the game. The see that more time equals greater reward. But they also get engaged in the community, a guild, with actual people who may draw them back into the game. "Please come and play with us". They make virtual meetings, which for many Europeans means staying up in the middle of the night. Slowly they begin to give up their traditional life. Food becomes problematic, you begin to eat in front of the computer, switching to fast food, perhaps drinking decaffeinated sugary beverages. Many loose their health, increase in weight, loose their hygiene, stop caring about how they look. Other interests die out. They give up meetings with their friends to give them more time with the game. They loose friends and replace them with in-game friends. Their friends do not understand the game anyway and the game is all you know and can talk about. The most interesting thing you can answer if someone ask you what you did lately might be things like "I got a new level" or "I am in a guild". Some even loose their jobs and get into economical trouble.

As DArtagnan pointed out, MMO's are dangerous because people do not know the poison. One reason people do not know is that it's victims go away in isolation. And unlike singleplayer games, MMO's never end. MMO's can never be paused and resumed later at the same stage. If you take a break friends might go away and other aspects might change. You might loose your opportunity to get unique and one-time-chance rewards etc.

Read some of the design notes Ralph Koster wrote on Ultima Online and Star Wars Galaxies. He specifically write how to design a game that exploits a gamers psychology to keep them mesmerized to the game.

MMO's are a designer drug.

 

[bemushroomed]

I didn't say it was a problem for everyone, so I'm not sure I see your point.

Did you really think I meant everyone was automatically addicted?

I never said that, so im not sure i see your point.

TES games might not end, as you say, but generally most people stop playing them after a number of hours because there's no social setting to make anything consistent and developer content is limited.

I've played Morrowind since release (2002), and i know many people that still do. The game even looks better than Oblivion now. The social setting is the community and the forum, it's no less addictive than playing a MMO. I don't think most people that play TES do it for the developer content, they do if for the thousands of great mods. The dev content is more like a tiny taste of what can be done with their engine, imo.

The fact that you and many, many others didn't have a problem doesn't mean they're not addictive and very dangerous to certain personalities.

Everything in existance can me misused / overused, drugs, sex, games, a kitchen knife, food, work etc. It doesnt mean those things are evil/bad, it just means that some people can't handle it and might need professional help, it will always be like that, and people who can handle it shouldnt need to suffer because of it.

 

[DArtagnan]

I've played Morrowind since release (2002), and i know many people that still do. The game even looks better than Oblivion now. The social setting is the community and the forum, it's no less addictive than playing a MMO. I don't think most people that play TES do it for the developer content, they do if for the thousands of great mods. The dev content is more like a tiny taste of what can be done with their engine, imo.

No, I don't agree with you at all.

I'm sure there's a tiny subset of players still playing Morrowind with mods, but compared with popular MMOs it's insignificant. You can claim that the social setting is the community and say it's the same thing as being in a guild in an MMO where you're expected to contribute daily - but I'd have to disagree entirely.

Everything in existance can me misused / overused, drugs, sex, games, a kitchen knife, food, work etc. It doesnt mean those things are evil/bad, it just means that some people can't handle it and might need professional help, it will always be like that, and people who can handle it shouldnt need to suffer because of it.

Who said anything about MMOs being evil?

We're talking about how they're very addictive to certain people, and I'm saying why it's a dangerous thing to dismiss the addiction as trivial.

But about people not being able to handle it, that's exactly my point. You bring up drugs yourself, and you say "that's just the way it is". I'm guessing you think drugs are fine and we shouldn't try to spread information about how they can affect your life?

I'm afraid I can't agree and I think it's very important to focus on things that represent a potential threat to a healthy life for those who're at risk.

If you're in no danger of becoming addicted, then maybe my post isn't directed at you and maybe you can safely ignore it? What's the point of trying to dismiss it unless you really think MMOs can't be addictive and harmful to people?

It seems to me that your position is not rational.

 

[Relayer]

anything inherently bad in the the design[/B].

You have got to be kidding.

- The amount of skills were reduced from Daggerfal to Morrowind to Oblivion.
- The level & loot scaling in Oblivion was horrific, making exploration and levelling in general quite pointless
- Compare the highly customizable user interface in Morrowind to Oblivion's
- Main quest in Morrowind was presented to you gradually, subtly, NATURALLY not so in Oblivion

These were just some of the bad design decisions made in Oblivion. Morrowind was extremely well received and even with its faults I still think it's an amazing and one of a kind experience.

 

[bemushroomed]

DArtagnan, i havent said it's trivial. I haven't said that there shouldn't be information about the dangers of drugs or MMO's. I'm just giving my point of view on the whole MMO thing, for me its been a positive experience, for you its been the opposite.

And i dont agree that MMO's are more addictive than, for example, a singelplayer game with mods, its just has to do with personal preference. I've probably spent more time creating mods than playing WoW by now.

MMO's is so easy to blame for everything these days it seems, they're the "big thing", has been for some time now, a lot of people play it, which also means greater numbers of people suffering from it, it means more bad publicity in the news etc etc. It's like alcohol compared to MDMA, more people have problems with alcohol, but its because its more wide spread in our culture, just like MMO's has been for some time. Before MMO's a lot of people played RTS games online, it was just as big.. many of my friends played those RTS games to no end.. before that it was something different.

 

[DArtagnan]

DArtagnan, i havent said it's trivial. I haven't said that there shouldn't be information about the dangers of drugs or MMO's. I'm just giving my point of view on the whole MMO thing, for me its been a positive experience, for you its been the opposite.

And i dont agree that MMO's are more addictive than, for example, a singelplayer game with mods, its just has to do with personal preference. I've probably spent more time creating mods than playing WoW by now.

MMO's is so easy to blame for everything these days it seems, they're the "big thing", has been for some time now, a lot of people play it, which also means greater numbers of people suffering from it, it means more bad publicity in the news etc etc. It's like alcohol compared to MDMA, more people have problems with alcohol, but its because its more wide spread in our culture, just like MMO's has been for some time. Before MMO's a lot of people played RTS games online, it was just as big.. many of my friends played those RTS games to no end.. before that it was something different.

Fair enough.

I personally find it amazing that you can't see how their very design makes them significantly more dangerous and unhealthy than a singleplayer game, but that's just that. The concept is unique precisely because of the things I've mentioned, like the social commitment and the never ending "hook".

I've had plenty of good experiences with MMOs, by the way, and it's unfortunate that it seems I'm "blaming them for everything" because I recognize the danger. It's not like it's just about my own personal experience, but also my experience with friends and even a loved one who has been affected by this genre.

It's not about assigning blame or taking away the responsibility you have as a person. It's more the pragmatic viewpoint of the genre being designed to keep you "hooked" indefinitely.

But, I think I've made my point - and we'll just have to disagree

 

[Corwin]

Actually, MMO's do have a built in 'end' for many players. It's called the level cap. Once I reach it in any game, I quickly lose interest. For me that was possibly my biggest issue with FO3; I reached the cap with more than half the game left to play!!

 

[xSamhainx]

I dont see why people finding "virtual" friends/love/power is a bad thing anyway. Some people have never really had friends, much less a girlfriend, or any type of feeling of community, or empowerment. And they probaby never will, just another Elenor Rigby, died alone and nobody gives a shit. I say if MMOs give some socially introverted and shy person a chance to experience relationships, even if its feeling the satisfaction of teamwork and fun playing with others, or leading a guild, or just messing around and talking dirty late at night w/ a member of the opposite sex - i think it's a good thing. Some people just arent meant for anything more, mmos may be some of the happiest times of their lives. I dont think its unhealthy, if anything its finally brought them out of their shell and made them part of something.

 

[Relayer]

I personally find it amazing that you can't see how their very design makes them significantly more dangerous and unhealthy than a singleplayer game,

You are suggesting that single player games are dangerous and unhealthy. This is ridiculous. That's like saying violent video games create real life violence.

If you already have an overly obsessive personality then yes, ANYTHING can potentially be unhealthy. Even food.

I was "addicted" to an MMORPG (Dark Age Of Camelot) for several years, played it very often, sometimes in marathon sessions spanning 6 or 7 hours. And when I wasn't playing it I was on forums dedicated to it or the guild I belonged to.

But I wouldn't say it was an unhealthy level of addiction. I played it for many consecutive hours only when I had the spare time, usually on a Saturday or Sunday when the wife and kids were doing their own thing or the weather was too lousy to go out. I'd take care of chores, meals and hygiene first of course and I still made it a point to exercise 3 to 4 days a week.

I never called in sick to stay home and play. During weekdays I logged off at a decent hour to get to bed. I still spent time with my kids & wife, still played single player games (though not as much), still read books, watched films, played guitar, had my meals away from the PC, etc.

So I enjoyed it immensely and there was some level of addiction there I guess: I sometimes couldn't wait to get home to log on and I would always check player stats/rankings several times a day. But I'm a somewhat normal person so the game didn't TOTALLY consume me, I still had a life aside from the game.

And when the wife wanted some "cuddling" time, I'd excuse myself from my guildies, carry her up to the bedroom and be back in game 3 minutes later. No neglect there

Seriously, it's no more unhealthy than the need to visit RPGWatch daily.

 

[DArtagnan]

You are suggesting that single player games are dangerous and unhealthy. This is ridiculous. That's like saying violent video games create real life violence.

If you already have an overly obsessive personality then yes, ANYTHING can potentially be unhealthy. Even food.

I was "addicted" to an MMORPG (Dark Age Of Camelot) for several years, played it very often, sometimes in marathon sessions spanning 6 or 7 hours. And when I wasn't playing it I was on forums dedicated to it or the guild I belonged to.

But I wouldn't say it was an unhealthy level of addiction. I played it for many consecutive hours only when I had the spare time, usually on a Saturday or Sunday when the wife and kids were doing their own thing or the weather was too lousy to go out. I'd take care of chores, meals and hygiene first of course and I still made it a point to exercise 3 to 4 days a week.

I never called in sick to stay home and play. During weekdays I logged off at a decent hour to get to bed. I still spent time with my kids & wife, still played single player games (though not as much), still read books, watched films, played guitar, had my meals away from the PC, etc.

So I enjoyed it immensely and there was some level of addiction there I guess: I sometimes couldn't wait to get home to log on and I would always check player stats/rankings several times a day. But I'm a somewhat normal person so the game didn't TOTALLY consume me, I still had a life aside from the game.

And when the wife wanted some "cuddling" time, I'd excuse myself from my guildies, carry her up to the bedroom and be back in game 3 minutes later. No neglect there

Seriously, it's no more unhealthy than the need to visit RPGWatch daily.

Is it really so hard to understand that I'm not talking about everyone?

You don't really need an "obsessive" personality for this to affect you negatively, as I've seen completely normal and otherwise non-addicts become seriously affected precisely because of the subtlety of the effects - at least at first.

I'm not here to judge anyone, and if your 7 years of time with DAoC felt worthwhile compared to whatever else you could have spent 7 years on, then you obviously don't have a problem. You say you never neglected anything while playing, which again, means you didn't have a problem. Some people do, though, and that's all I'm saying. It's really simple - and I'm sure every single person who ever played an MMO without feeling affected could come and say it's "ridiculous" to claim the games are potentially very unhealthy. That's a selfish and ignorant attitude, if you ask me, and it shows a lack of understanding of others. As long as there are people suffering from this addiction and there are people unable to control their playtime - it's something I think should be talked about.

Visiting RPGWatch daily carries no expectations from others, and there's no sensation of having "achieved" a goal built-in to the design. Besides, not a lot of people would feel compelled to neglect themselves and their families on a daily basis because they're posting here. It's a very casual site afterall.´

Besides, you don't want to know how hard it is for some people to acknowledge they have a problem in the first place. Since there's no "hard evidence" like drugs eventually carry - MMOs are especially easy to be addicted to without obvious tell-tale signs. People can say they don't neglect anything and they're happy inside - and it can be total bullshit. I've seen it more than once.

 

[DArtagnan]

Actually, MMO's do have a built in 'end' for many players. It's called the level cap. Once I reach it in any game, I quickly lose interest. For me that was possibly my biggest issue with FO3; I reached the cap with more than half the game left to play!!

Obviously, you haven't heard of the joys of the gear grind, expansions, and alts

 

[DArtagnan]

I dont see why people finding "virtual" friends/love/power is a bad thing anyway. Some people have never really had friends, much less a girlfriend, or any type of feeling of community, or empowerment. And they probaby never will, just another Elenor Rigby, died alone and nobody gives a shit. I say if MMOs give some socially introverted and shy person a chance to experience relationships, even if its feeling the satisfaction of teamwork and fun playing with others, or leading a guild, or just messing around and talking dirty late at night w/ a member of the opposite sex - i think it's a good thing. Some people just arent meant for anything more, mmos may be some of the happiest times of their lives. I dont think its unhealthy, if anything its finally brought them out of their shell and made them part of something.

Some people "aren't meant for anything more"? What does that mean anyway. Are you suggesting that everyone ever addicted to an MMO and who were neglecting themselves playing aren't meant for more and so it's ok?

I think that's a very unfortunate position, and I certainly can't agree.

Are there good things about MMOs? Definitely. Are they potentially unhealthy and dangerous due to their very design? Definitely.

 

[Anderson]

I say if MMOs give some socially introverted and shy person a chance to experience relationships, even if its feeling the satisfaction of teamwork and fun playing with others, or leading a guild, or just messing around and talking dirty late at night w/ a member of the opposite sex - i think it's a good thing. Some people just arent meant for anything more, mmos may be some of the happiest times of their lives. I dont think its unhealthy, if anything its finally brought them out of their shell and made them part of something.

I think that's okay, assuming they take that experience and use it as a springboard to real world relating. If that's the only level of relationship they ever achieve, that's not good. It's more like a sad little substitute, at that point. But potentially, I suppose it can be a bridge to something more meaningful, a step forward for people who are really socially anxious.

I have problems with the idea that "some people just aren't meant for anything more." We are all meant for something more than grinding away in an MMO as our relational life. As a stepping stone? Sure. As an endpoint? I sure hope not.

You are suggesting that single player games are dangerous and unhealthy. This is ridiculous. That's like saying violent video games create real life violence.

No, he's saying MMOs are potentially addictive. I agree with him. Lots of things are potentially addictive. Potentially. Some have a direct route to our pleasure centers (e.g., cocaine). Some do not (MMOs), and so are pretty far down the dangerousness scale, compared to, e.g., crack cocaine. But the danger is still there, especially for people who are vulnerable.

I was "addicted" to an MMORPG (Dark Age Of Camelot) for several years, played it very often, sometimes in marathon sessions spanning 6 or 7 hours.

I would not call that an addiction, since you say your life wasn't negatively affected in any way. Without some kind of negative consequences from the use of the substance/process, it's just something you enjoy and are really passionate about.

Not everyone who works 100 hours a week is a "workaholic" for instance. Some of them just really enjoy their work. Others are driven to it, though, or their life is falling apart around them, or their whole being is centered around work productivity and little else, or they can't dial it back despite trying, etc. Then it's fair to talk about "addiction."

And when the wife wanted some "cuddling" time, I'd excuse myself from my guildies, carry her up to the bedroom and be back in game 3 minutes later.

She's a lucky woman.

As long as there are people suffering from this addiction and there are people unable to control their playtime - it's something I think should be talked about.

I agree. Having never played an MMO, I find it hard to understand the hook or the "high" people get from it — in fact, when I hear MMO play described, I feel bored — but I believe the addiction exists, and I think the topic is worthwhile.

 

[Relayer]

Is it really so hard to understand that I'm not talking about everyone?

You don't really need an "obsessive" personality for this to affect you negatively, as I've seen completely normal and otherwise non-addicts become seriously affected precisely because of the subtlety of the effects - at least at first.

It's not hard to understand. But for anyone to become seriously negatively affected by a video game (or anything at all, except for say substances that have physiological affects on a person), I truly believe there has to be some underlying problem or flaw in the personality to begin with.

Normal people don't neglect day to day responsibilities to the point where it produces serious negative effects. I don't buy that.

Now I could see it consume someone who has no friends, no family, no other hobbies or pastimes. But someone who already sits in front of a PC or console every minute of their spare time with no other goals or aspirations or the need to step out for fresh air or exercise once in a while or read a book or do anything semi-productive already has issues.

And as a gamer, you should not be putting a negative spin on gaming. That's what the non-gamers want.

Seriously, it just infuriates me when people call gaming unhealthy or dangerous. May as well call painting, writing, playing an instrument, collecting action figures, knitting, or poker unhealthy.

I'm not here to judge anyone, and if your 7 years of time with DAoC felt worthwhile compared to whatever else you could have spent 7 years on, then you obviously don't have a problem. You say you never neglected anything while playing, which again, means you didn't have a problem. Some people do, though, and that's all I'm saying."

7 years???? Don't think I ever said that. I played DAOC for 6 months at release then came back a couple of years later for another 2 years. My amount of playing peaked the first year of those 2 years and then tapered off gradually.

Still, the way you say "spent 7 years on" makes it seem as if that's the only thing I would have been doing.

 

[JDR13]

I see this thread continuing for a long time.....

 

[Relayer]

I agree. Having never played an MMO, I find it hard to understand the hook or the "high" people get from it — in fact, when I hear MMO play described, I feel bored — but I believe the addiction exists, and I think the topic is worthwhile.

Well with DAOC, to me it was the competition. It was about having our guild be in the top 5 guilds as far as points and about me trying to be # 1 in my particular class/server. That certainly drove me to keep playing.

Also, the people were nice and we'd play using voice chat so some days there wouldn't be any playing really, just a bunch of us chatting and goofing off. So there was the social aspect.

But above all, it was just fun. if you're not familiar with DAOC, it was a game based on the Camelot lore and you could belong to any one of 3 realms which were at war. The only reason I played was because of the player versus player as they called it in that game RvR (realm vs. realm).

It was a blast to storm an enemy tower in a group (of 8), kill it's guards and try to break down the gates with battering rams as quickly as possible before the real life players of that realm came to defend. Once we captured and defended a tower successfully, we'd move on the the next tower all the while putting the call to other guildies or realm mates to start taking other towers.

Eventually a few groups would make it to the enemy Keep, a much larger and strongly fortified stronghold than a tower obviously, take it over and thats where you'd have these hours long battles trying to maintain control of that particular keep.

Then at times we'd just roam in a group and just fight other roaming groups for the fun (and bragging rights) of it.

So it was a blast to play against other live players. But I honestly don't get how people can play other MMORPGs which involve nothing but quests and fights against computer controlled enemies.

That whole grinding to have the best weapons and rare items - THAT I don't get. For a 30 to 40 hour co-op game I can see playing with friends. But for years? That's where MMOs lose me. I'd rather play a single player game.

 

[Relayer]

I see this thread continuing for a long time…..

Hi all.
My name is Relayer.
And I'm a thread addict.