Pope Francis describes ‘ideological Christians’ as a ‘serious illness’

No it isn't a hoax - that is a conspiracy theory that deniers have made up to try and explain why there is an overwhelming consensus on climate change in science. And it is just another example of confirmation bias, because your right wing colleagues have a political axe to grind. Again it is not really any different to holocaust denial or believing that the Earth is flat and that noone went to the moon or believing the world is 6000 years old. You can live cocooned in a world of wacky theories on the internet, if you don't know how to skeptically evaluate evidence.

The facts though are not right wing or left wing, they are the actual, real consequences of humanity pumping CO2 into the atmosphere. Don't just look at sources that conform to your pre conceived ideas already - i.e look at the real science. Start with trying to understand the volumes of CO2 humanity generates (compared to natural processes) and from what sources, then it is very easy to understand why the greenhouse effect is real and that is a first step in understanding how we alter the climate.

Oh and the world population is still increasing by about 80 million a year, so no we don't need more children and in fact can not even feed many of the existing ones or give them a decent quality of life. And they got along fine a century or so ago with only a fraction of the worlds current population.

Actually the idea of the hoax comes from the fact that alarmists have stated that the temperature is rising very fast, when it is not. Even from NASA who have shown errors before say the temperature increases 2.5 to 10 degrees over the next century.

http://climate.nasa.gov/effects/

Which is significant but not as bad as they said before. For the last 10 years or so the temperature has flatlined. We are in an ice age now. So the earth is cooling now.

This study suggests that global warming has been good for humanity because global cooling is a threat to crops etc.
http://www.globalresearch.ca/global-cooling-is-here/10783

That said i do not know what is causing global cooling. Perhaps the earth is more resilient than we think? I think in the next 50 years or so we will know though.
 
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Isn't it just a question of *where* you start making stuff up? I don't imagine that any concept of "creation and the fall" could be easily reconcilable with what we now know about the universe and how life evolved on this planet, without some acrobatic apologetics. You are very dismissive about other people's religions, why are you not equally skeptical about your own?

What is there to reconcile? Would even an atheist deny that man is a fallen and corrupt creature? Would an atheist deny that man is the only creature endowed with a conscience and capable of good and evil(event tough most atheists and relativistic nihilists who believe these things to be only "concepts")?

Jesuit priest and nobel laureate Georges Lemaitre was the creator of the big bang theory, and like I said, traditional Christians were never scandalized by the ideas of Darwin and Lamarck(they were later scandalized by the eugenics movement, but that is another story). I don't know why the ignorant keep insisting that there is an elemental conflict between religion and scientific progress. There never was.

Would you mind explaining why it is your idea that a Catholic or Orthodox Christian would have any hardship reconciling his worldview with our current "knowledge about the universe"? The idea in itself seems quite absurd, but I guess for the most strident and fanatical followers of Dawkins the Westboro Baptist Church is the best representation of the Christian religious establishment.
 
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What is there to reconcile? Would even an atheist deny that man is a fallen and corrupt creature? Would an atheist deny that man is the only creature endowed with a conscience and capable of good and evil(event tough most atheists and relativistic nihilists who believe these things to be only "concepts")?

Jesuit priest and nobel laureate Georges Lemaitre was the creator of the big bang theory, and like I said, traditional Christians were never scandalized by the ideas of Darwin and Lamarck(they were later scandalized by the eugenics movement, but that is another story). I don't know why the ignorant keep insisting that there is an elemental conflict between religion and scientific progress. There never was.

Would you mind explaining why it is your idea that a Catholic or Orthodox Christian would have any hardship reconciling his worldview with our current "knowledge about the universe"? The idea in itself seems quite absurd, but I guess for the most strident and fanatical followers of Dawkins the Westboro Baptist Church is the best representation of the Christian religious establishment.

Religion conflicts with science in so far as religious doctrines make truth claims about the empirical world. So, if it is your claim that mankind was created by some kind of "intelligent" entity, then that is a scientific hypothesis (it is a truth claim about the empirical world) and one for which there is an alternative and conflicting explanation in mainstream science, which is that life arose by abiogenesis and evolved by an undirected natural process. In fact the whole point of such scientific explanations is that they can explain how complexity arose, without the necessity of an even more complex set of causes.

So religious explanations are superfluous and given their lack of evidential support that implies they are almost certainly untrue - when you have a good explanation you don't need the bad one. Some religious people (including the pope) can accept that evolution must have happened, but they can't accept that it was undirected (which is really the whole point of the theory of natural selection) and many also balk at abiogenesis, because if life arose naturally from the substrate and conditions on the early earth, then it was not created. So the conflict is that science follows the evidence, whereas religion can only follow dogma (or self destruct): Even if religious people can have the flexibility to interpret much of the bible as allegory, there still must be a sticking point. And it is there that religion comes into conflict with science.

Modern cosmology just takes natural explanations further back, so that we now know the huge scale of the universe, which is quite different from the tiny, claustrophobic universe of a pre scientific religion with a central earth and pinpricks of light poking through a solid firmament, as described in genesis. Richard Feynman puts it well: “It doesn't seem to me that this fantastically marvelous universe, this tremendous range of time and space and different kinds of animals, and all the different planets, and all these atoms with all their motions, and so on, all this complicated thing can merely be a stage so that God can watch human beings struggle for good and evil - which is the view that religion has. The stage is too big for the drama.”

And sure, human beings are corrupt, but the term "fallen" in Christianity implies that humanity was once in a higher state and later came down from that higher state by committing some "sin" or other, only to be redeemed by Jesus's self sacrifice. i.e. The nonsensical doctrine of atonement that is central to the Christian faith. That might have made some sense to a desert tribe that sacrificed goats to placate an angry Yahweh, but it doesn't now. And again it appears contrary to evidence, in that mankind was likely never in some higher state - evolution just doesn't work that way.
 
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And sure, human beings are corrupt.
Corruption is the fall from a state deemed superior to a state deemed inferior (the whole subjectivity in the case of humanity being to determine what is superior and what is inferior)

If human beings are corrupt, from what state did they fall?

Another point: a redemption also means that human beings are no longer corrupt.

Are human beings corrupt or are they not?
 
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Corruption is the fall from a state deemed superior to a state deemed inferior (the whole subjectivity in the case of humanity being to determine what is superior and what is inferior)

If human beings are corrupt, from what state did they fall?

Another point: a redemption also means that human beings are no longer corrupt.

Are human beings corrupt or are they not?

Human beings are still corrupt. We are only in our redeemed form when we are reborn into our new bodies after jesus returns.
 
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The redemption did not happen then. Only the promise of it.
Tomorrow, it will be better.
 
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Corruption is the fall from a state deemed superior to a state deemed inferior (the whole subjectivity in the case of humanity being to determine what is superior and what is inferior)

If human beings are corrupt, from what state did they fall?

Another point: a redemption also means that human beings are no longer corrupt.

Are human beings corrupt or are they not?

The Oxford dictionary has the main definition of corruption as "Dishonest or fraudulent conduct by those in power, typically involving bribery" i.e. abuse of authority over others. In that context, there is no necessary implication of some state of grace in older cultures preceding more corrupt societies today, because, likely, many people would abuse power over others and are just waiting for a good opportunity, which is why we have laws that attempt to mitigate it.

There is no reason to imagine that our primate ancestors were any different to ourselves in respect of corrupt nastiness: In fact, if primitive sites are a guide, if anything they were probably even nastier than we are in their attempts to wield power over others and get themselves a bigger slice of the cake, since the conciliatory parts of our cultural and diplomatic interaction were more primitive then, so corruption would more likely lead to violence; it is just fortunate that there were not any Kalashnikovs lieing around at the time.

So, the concept that mankind has undergone some kind of fall from a higher state of grace is the opposite of what seems to have actually occurred, through civilisation and progressive secular morality, at least in much of the western world.
 
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Of course there is. It just takes to read.

First word from the definition: dishonest, dis-honest, that implies that there are honest people(honest people being people who conduct honestly, showing they are honest through their behaviour, just like people show they support freedom of speech by respecting freedom of speech, in opposition to people who support censorship by censoring or supporting censorship)
Another implication(as revealed by the rest of the definition)
Those in power are supposed to be honest in the way they adopt and display honest conduct, which should include to be immune to bribery.


The deemed superior status: people in power are honest. They show their honesty by displaying a honest conduct.
The deemed inferior status: people in power are dishonest. They show their dishonesty by displaying a dishonest conduct.

So for societies, organizations, groups etc adopting the deemed hierarchy between the two status, there is forcefully a fall from a superior position to an inferior position.

The rest calls no answer as the first assertion is wrong.
 
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Actually the idea of the hoax comes from the fact that alarmists have stated that the temperature is rising very fast, when it is not. Even from NASA who have shown errors before say the temperature increases 2.5 to 10 degrees over the next century.

http://climate.nasa.gov/effects/

Which is significant but not as bad as they said before. For the last 10 years or so the temperature has flatlined. We are in an ice age now. So the earth is cooling now.

This study suggests that global warming has been good for humanity because global cooling is a threat to crops etc.
http://www.globalresearch.ca/global-cooling-is-here/10783

That said i do not know what is causing global cooling. Perhaps the earth is more resilient than we think? I think in the next 50 years or so we will know though.

HHR said "manmade global warming is a hoax", and implied a conspiracy in which the whole climate science community would have to be involved. As I said earlier, mankind is emitting significant CO2 into the atmosphere and the greenhouse effect is real, which is easy to check, so that is nonsense (in case anyone sensible didn't know that anyway). Likely some people have made inaccurate predictions: Discussions where uninformed people throw fallacious stats at each other are common. But, the consensus among the scientific community is that climate change is a very real problem that will have serious consequences. And really the opinion of the general public is irrelevant, just as it is in deciding the facts of quantum physics - No amount of votes will change the results of the double slit experiment and similarly no amount of climate change "skepticism" will mitigate the effects of pumping CO2 into the atmosphere. What you guys can do though is inhibit attempts to address the problem, before it becomes critical.

...And since you live in a world designed around the principles of modern science, but still believe in the literal truth of Noah's ark, I think most people would be happier if climate change was left in the hands of those with a more rational approach to determining what is likely to be factual.
 
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Religion conflicts with science in so far as religious doctrines make truth claims about the empirical world. So, if it is your claim that mankind was created by some kind of "intelligent" entity, then that is a scientific hypothesis (it is a truth claim about the empirical world) and one for which there is an alternative and conflicting explanation in mainstream science.

Not at all. Like I said, Genesis was never meant to be interpreted as a historical text. Traditional Christians believe God is responsible for creation, yes, but they make no claims as to what methods or processes He used.

The usage of words like "random" and "undirected" to describe the evolutionary process are contested even by Dawkins, btw. There is nothing random about it.
 
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Not at all. Like I said, Genesis was never meant to be interpreted as a historical text. Traditional Christians believe God is responsible for creation, yes, but they make no claims as to what methods or processes He used.

The usage of words like "random" and "undirected" to describe the evolutionary process are contested even by Dawkins, btw. There is nothing random about it.

English bishops are famous for not actually believing in God - the whole thing is a metaphor and all that stuff. That is fine, as long as you make your position transparently clear, which you deviously have not done. But, my guess is that you do believe in a particular instantiation of a creator god, which would conflict with natural origins and for which there is no evidence.

Evolution occurs through random mutations and non random natural selection. i.e. the place a mutation occurs in the genome is random, but if it is a harmful mutation, it is discarded by natural selection owing to organisms that have it being disadvantaged (and vice versa). So, yes, there is a substantial degree of randomness in evolution and it isn't directed by an intelligence either - that would be intelligent design. In fact things don't evolve from a lower state to a higher one at all as popular imagination would have it, they just evolve to become better fitted into whatever environment they happen to be in. And evolution can not plan or look forward, it is entirely reactive to external conditions.
 
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HHR said "manmade global warming is a hoax", and implied a conspiracy in which the whole climate science community would have to be involved. As I said earlier, mankind is emitting significant CO2 into the atmosphere and the greenhouse effect is real, which is easy to check, so that is nonsense (in case anyone sensible didn't know that anyway). Likely some people have made inaccurate predictions: Discussions where uninformed people throw fallacious stats at each other are common. But, the consensus among the scientific community is that climate change is a very real problem that will have serious consequences. And really the opinion of the general public is irrelevant, just as it is in deciding the facts of quantum physics - No amount of votes will change the results of the double slit experiment and similarly no amount of climate change "skepticism" will mitigate the effects of pumping CO2 into the atmosphere. What you guys can do though is inhibit attempts to address the problem, before it becomes critical.

…And since you live in a world designed around the principles of modern science, but still believe in the literal truth of Noah's ark, I think most people would be happier if climate change was left in the hands of those with a more rational approach to determining what is likely to be factual.

There is no such thing as a consensus in the scientific community because part of science is having opposition, and that is quite healthy for the advancement of science. A consensus is a political concept not a scientific concept.


http://wattsupwiththat.com/2014/12/19/97-articles-refuting-the-97-consensus-on-global-warming/
 
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There is no such thing as a consensus in the scientific community because part of science is having opposition, and that is quite healthy for the advancement of science. A consensus is a political concept not a scientific concept.


http://wattsupwiththat.com/2014/12/19/97-articles-refuting-the-97-consensus-on-global-warming/

No, that is nonsense too. There is a consensus in any field when the vast majority of its adherents support a particular position. That is what consensus means. There are always fringe theories and totally crack pot ones (you will recall our previous discussions), but these work themselves out of mainstream science when they have been falsified or when they don't make valid predictions, so the scientific consensus represents the best available knowledge we currently have. Speculative hypotheses on the leading edge of cosmology, say, are of course not so firmly held - but that is something that science fully recognizes.
 
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English bishops are famous for not actually believing in God - the whole thing is a metaphor and all that stuff. That is fine, as long as you make your position transparently clear, which you deviously have not done. But, my guess is that you do believe in a particular instantiation of a creator god, which would conflict with natural origins and for which there is no evidence.

I do believe in God, the Holy Trinity, orginal sin, the divinity of Christ, the whole thing. I am not nearly as knowleadgeable on theological subjects as I wish I were, but as far as I am aware I am an orthodox traditional Catholic. I don't think I embrace any "modernistic heresy" in my religion and I am fascinated by the medieval world, but you could argue I am far more tolerant or even "liberal" compared to most Catholics of centuries past.

The truth is that the counter-reformation and the first Vatican council changed a lot of things. Some for the better, some not. It was only the second council which went completely off the hook and did exclusively shit.

And anglicans have always been cynical. We are talking about an entire Christian denomination created simply because a King couldn't keep his jimmy in his pants. They have many respectable traditions(specially with their "anglo-catholicism" or "high-church anglicanism") but in the end they can't take themselves that seriously, specially considering the high level of decadence they have reached. Right now they are at a worse state than even the rainbow lutherans.


Evolution occurs through random mutations and non random natural selection. i.e. the place a mutation occurs in the genome is random, but if it is a harmful mutation, it is discarded by natural selection owing to organisms that have it being disadvantaged (and vice versa). So, yes, there is a substantial degree of randomness in evolution and it isn't directed by an intelligence either - that would be intelligent design. In fact things don't evolve from a lower state to a higher one at all as popular imagination would have it, they just evolve to become better fitted into whatever environment they happen to be in. And evolution can not plan or look forward, it is entirely reactive to external conditions.

I hope you do realize that the whole thing is infinitely debatable. In a universe governed by clear rules(such as ours), you might be hard-pressed to convince someone that everything is just random chaos and disorder. It strikes me as senseless to claim that there is no intelligence behind creation considering how orderly everything is. And even men like Dawkins would passingly refer to humanity as a "miracle", even though they deny all glodliness.
 
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And anglicans have always been cynical. We are talking about an entire Christian denomination created simply because a King couldn't keep his jimmy in his pants. They have many respectable traditions(specially with their "anglo-catholicism" or "high-church anglicanism") but in the end they can't take themselves that seriously, specially considering the high level of decadence they have reached. Right now they are at a worse state than even the rainbow lutherans.

What I find disturbing about your posts and HHRs and Damian's to some extent, is not that you are all science deniers, although that is painfully apparent, but that you are so intolerant of those who don't adopt the exact perspective that you have, given that you offer no valid reasons for those particular shades of belief. In reality Christianity, a religion to which you all profess, is fractured, a smörgåsbord of different beliefs that are unified only by their connections and origins from the same historical accident. Your common feeling, if any, is just the result of happenstance, rather some deep shared meaning of what is actually important to people making their way in life.
 
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I hope you do realize that the whole thing is infinitely debatable. In a universe governed by clear rules(such as ours), you might be hard-pressed to convince someone that everything is just random chaos and disorder. It strikes me as senseless to claim that there is no intelligence behind creation considering how orderly everything is. And even men like Dawkins would passingly refer to humanity as a "miracle", even though they deny all glodliness.

But, things are not orderly. In reality we exist, briefly, in a thin layer of green scum on an insignificant planet of an average sun, of an average galaxy in an immensity of random chaos. And that is just a temporary arrangement until our sun burns out (or some other cosmological accident strikes us out) and the accelerating universe, it's usable energy exhausted, expands into an endless sea of nothingness.
 
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No, that is nonsense too. There is a consensus in any field when the vast majority of its adherents support a particular position. That is what consensus means. There are always fringe theories and totally crack pot ones (you will recall our previous discussions), but these work themselves out of mainstream science when they have been falsified or when they don't make valid predictions, so the scientific consensus represents the best available knowledge we currently have. Speculative hypotheses on the leading edge of cosmology, say, are of course not so firmly held - but that is something that science fully recognizes.

Then there is no consensus on climate change. The 97% is done very dubiously.
 
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There is no such thing as a consensus in the scientific community because part of science is having opposition, and that is quite healthy for the advancement of science. A consensus is a political concept not a scientific concept.


http://wattsupwiththat.com/2014/12/19/97-articles-refuting-the-97-consensus-on-global-warming/
That's a list of total bullshit from a bunch of right-wing wacko publications. You need to actually start listening to world climate scientists, rather than looney conspiracy theorists and religious zealots.
 
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What I find disturbing about your posts and HHRs and Damian's to some extent, is not that you are all science deniers, although that is painfully apparent, but that you are so intolerant of those who don't adopt the exact perspective that you have, given that you offer no valid reasons for those particular shades of belief. In reality Christianity, a religion to which you all profess, is fractured, a smörgåsbord of different beliefs that are unified only by their connections and origins from the same historical accident. Your common feeling, if any, is just the result of happenstance, rather some deep shared meaning of what is actually important to people making their way in life.

"science deniers", lol. Why is that? Because we are Catholic?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Roman_Catholic_cleric-scientists
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Catholic_scientists

Vain assertion. Catholics have made the single greatest contribution to the advancemente of science in the near two millenia they have existed. It is only in recent centuries that self-appointed "enlightened men" like Dawkins(usually unimportant thinkers, much like himself) have begun this faux trend of preaching about a "conflict" between religion and reason.

It is even funnier that they repeatedly parade the few and irrelevant historical cases that had nothing to do with science in the first place. Such as the Galileo affair or the execution of Giordano Bruno. In reality even the protestants have not interfered with the advancement of science to any considerable degree.

Even the muslims didn't for a long time(until Al-Gazhali, that is). Atheists, on the other hand have done so. They were the ones who beheaded Lavoisier and promoted all kinds of irrational absurdity since the french revolution broke out.

But, things are not orderly. In reality we exist, briefly, in a thin layer of green scum on an insignificant planet of an average sun, of an average galaxy in an immensity of random chaos. And that is just a temporary arrangement until our sun burns out (or some other cosmological accident strikes us out) and the accelerating universe, it's usable energy exhausted, expands into an endless sea of nothingness.

Quit watching cosmos. de Grasse and Sagan are irrelevant pop scientists. While you are at it, quite reading Hawkings' mumbo jumbo. He looks cool in that wheelchair and sells a lot of books, but as a scientist he has no concrete and proven contribution.

Also, the lovecraftian worldview is entertaining, but in the end just another shallow nihilistic fashion. I like his fiction a lot, but the man himself has few to be emulated or admired. Sad that so many geeks consider him some kind of sage.
 
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