Fifty Shots

[woges]

I don't think dte would be in a car with someone trying to run down a police officer.

That isn't the point and you know it.

 

[zahratustra]

Obviously, I don't know the directions of fire in this instance, but you're making a big, and possibly erroneous, assumption that the police were targetting all 3 people.

With 50 bulleys you don't have to be targetted. The only suprise it that two other car passengers survived.

"...Surveillance cameras at the Port Authority's Jamaica AirTrain station a half block away from the shooting site recorded one of the bullets fired by the officers shattering through the station's glass window and narrowly missing a civilian and two Port Authority patrolmen who were standing on the station's elevated platform..."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sean_Bell

So one more:
1- was it a driver of the car or all 3 occupants that policemen felt threatened by?
3- the question of the mystical "4th man" who was supposed to fire from the car and than vanish?
4- 50 bullets.

 

[Squeek]

Aren't police officers supposed to be carefully selected and trained before they're issued guns? Is it too much to expect them to exercise good judgment? Is it wrong to want them to be responsible?

Put away the microscopes, because there's no need to examine this closely. The authorities deserve our support but not to the point of ignoring something outrageous.

 

[dteowner]

I echo BN's comment from a few pages back that the 31-shot-officer should drive a desk for the rest of his career. There's clearly some judgement issues there.

BUT.....

In our rush to create a martyr or two and demonize the authorities while we're having so much fun, let us never lose sight of the cold hard fact that this incident never would have happened without the horrendous error in judgement of trying to drive over top of somebody with a gun, particularly a police officer that has undoubtedly told you to freeze (or some such). Now, the passengers in the car could claim innocence since they didn't directly attack the police, but their complaint should be with the driver that put them in danger. Root cause, folks, root cause.

 

[Kendrik]

Aren't police officers supposed to be carefully selected and trained before they're issued guns? Is it too much to expect them to exercise good judgment? Is it wrong to want them to be responsible?

Put away the microscopes, because there's no need to examine this closely. The authorities deserve our support but not to the point of ignoring something outrageous.

Exactly my point. Who decides if they did something wrong... how about a court? Oh yeah they did go to court and were acquitted if we start seconded guessing court decisions with only the media presented evidence then that way chaos lays.

That isn't the point and you know it.

... it is kinda the point - if you live a criminal lifestyle and hang around with criminals then don't complain when you are dragged into the consequences of their actions

 

[woges]

"... it is kinda the point - if you live a criminal lifestyle and hang around with criminals then don't complain when you are dragged into the consequences of their actions"

No I don't agree because that sets a precedent that it becomes acceptable to do that to anyone. Which it clearly is not.

 

[Kendrik]

"... it is kinda the point - if you live a criminal lifestyle and hang around with criminals then don't complain when you are dragged into the consequences of their actions"

No I don't agree because that sets a precedent that it becomes acceptable to do that to anyone. Which it clearly is not.

I don't think it does set that precedent. I agree that it's not OK to do that to anyone but in this case and similar cases where the cops life is in danger then they have a right to protect themselves.

 

[woges]

I don't think it does set that precedent. I agree that it's not OK to do that to anyone but in this case and similar cases where the cops life is in danger then they have a right to protect themselves.

I'm not even sure I believe that they were, however, 31 shots is not reasonable force. If you can stand there and reload and keep firing you're not in danger that's the kind of behaviour I expect from mobsters not the police.

 

[Squeek]

You do know there are two sides to this story, don't you, Kendrik? You know, the ones that were argued in court? And you're familiar with judicial review, aren't you? Maybe you've heard of rulings that were overturned?

Are you married, Kendrik? Did your friends throw you a bachelor party? Did that make you all a bunch of criminals?

 

[dteowner]

As Kendrik emphasized long ago, the officers were cleared of wrongdoing. Two sides of the story heard, judgement made. We're talking about it because certain folks weren't happy with said judgement.

And once again, we're glossing over root cause here. Bachelor party? Nope, irrelevant. Gangsta lifestyle? Nope. Racial tension? Keep trying. Drunk as a skunk? Not quite there yet. Trying to run over a cop? We have a winner.

Sympathy is all fine and dandy, but there's just no getting around the root cause, folks.

 

[Squeek]

The officers were acquitted of the crimes charged against them. That's all. And don't you mean there's no getting around your insistence of root cause? Because the other side claimed it never happened.

You're right that that depiction of the facts was accepted as the truth. It smells fishy to me.

 

[zahratustra]

Now, the passengers in the car could claim innocence since they didn't directly attack the police, but their complaint should be with the driver that put them in danger. Root cause, folks, root cause.

Now you are just being silly dte! If the stray policeman's bullet DID hit one of those people at Port Authority who should they blame? As for the root causes? In the case of survivors, the root causes were 19 gunshot wounds in one case and 3 in the other.

... it is kinda the point - if you live a criminal lifestyle and hang around with criminals then don't complain when you are dragged into the consequences of their actions

Ahhh yes Kendrick just keeps piling fallacy upon fallacy: and now for your delectation ladies and gentlemen a textbook example of "guilt by association". The fallacy especially sweet since none of car passengers were convicted criminals.

 

[dteowner]

I haven't used "delectation" in my life, but I can still identify using fancy words to gold plate bullshit.

By the way, since we're talking about the incident, wounds are not a cause. Wounds are an effect. If you can roll out "delectation", I think you should be able to keep that straight. Let's try a little problem solving technique, shall we? Yeah, I can be haughty, too. This is called "5Y" for short, or, more appropriately, "Five Why's". While not as widely used in debate class, we make extensive use of it in the real world to solve real problems. The theory is that you can find root cause of any problem by digging thru causals 5 or less levels deep. Let's play!
Problem: 2 guys got shot
Why? The police shot the car they were in
Why? The police felt endangered.
Why? They were nearly run down by the car.
Why? The driver of said car didn't want to comply with police orders
Why? The driver chose not to.

You'll notice there's no mention of the officers after the 2nd "why". There's a reason for that--they're not part of the root cause.

Class dismissed.

 

[woges]

"Both Bloomberg and Kelly have also noted that the shooting was possibly in violation of department guidelines prohibiting shooting at a moving vehicle, even if the vehicle is being used as a weapon"

Class dismissed?

 

[zahratustra]

Smore and Mirrors dte. Smoke and Mirrors. And I am not playing until you answer question from my previous post : "If the stray policeman's bullet DID hit one of those people at Port Authority who should they blame?"

 

[JDR13]

I'm not even sure I believe that they were, however, 31 shots is not reasonable force. If you can stand there and reload and keep firing you're not in danger that's the kind of behaviour I expect from mobsters not the police.

You don't have a clue what kind of danger they were in because you weren't there.

Nuff said..

 

[zahratustra]

Neither have you since you weren't there either.

 

[JDR13]

Smore and Mirrors dte. Smoke and Mirrors. And I am not playing until you answer question from my previous post : "If the stray policeman's bullet DID hit one of those people at Port Authority who should they blame?"

I'll answer it for him because it's an easy question.

If the people in the car had complied with those officers in the first place instead of aiming their car at them... then no shots would have been fired to begin with.

 

[JDR13]

Neither have you since you weren't there either.

Maybe you're finally getting the point.

None of us were there, so why does everyone insist on speculations and accusations?

 

[dteowner]

@woges- We're going to declare the NYC mayor and an ex-governor experts on police procedures? Even if we do, note the word "possibly"--that's political hedging at its best.

@zahratustra- Barring gross negligence (as in- closing your eyes, spinning around, and pulling the trigger), any injuries stemming from the incident should be blamed on the cause of the incident, which would be the driver. No incident, no injuries.

@JDR- yep, you guessed it.