Christian Beliefs

[blatantninja]

But that's what I'm saying. If the other Gospels are different, how can you believe them ? If they all say something else, why are those four true and the others not?
And if they were written by witnesses and not Jesus himself, how do you even know that they're actually real and/or truthful in what they saw? Like I said in the other thread too, they chose the four which seemed to be the most compatible with one another, but what if the one which was actually the truth got rejected?

At some point you have to take a 'leap of faith.' That's true with any religion.

And like I said, I don't see the stories of the other Gospels (outside of Judas at least) to be significantly different on the important parts.

 

[Pladio]

Yes, saying someone is wrong is good, but while someone is speaking, let him finish and then tell him of his mistakes. By not letting him speak, you will just discredit the person, making them not listen to you at all. Think about conferences where ideas are thrown. If I'd say: I think this is a good... and then you'd scream NO. You're not letting me finish, making me not want to listen to you. If you just disrespect people, your voice will only be heard through violence.

If you can't respect other people's ideas then it's not worth respecting yours, it's that simple.

Respecting, listening and agreeing are all different, but without respect you won't achieve anything else.

 

[Pladio]

At some point you have to take a 'leap of faith.' That's true with any religion.

And like I said, I don't see the stories of the other Gospels (outside of Judas at least) to be significantly different on the important parts.

A leap of faith is easy for people who've been taught to believe in a certain way (especially since there is no leap to speak of anyway).

I've also read about Non-Trinitarian views. Many who believe that that view is older and thus more authentic than the Trinitarian view which has been arranged by the Council of Nicea I believe.
How did the Trinity actually come to be ?
The Holy Spirit in the OT has never actually been defined as something else than God himself. It usually was to say that God was about to do something or that his presence was there.
Jesus himself also said several times that the Father knows more than him. In one of the Apostles dreams I believe it is also said that Jesus is on God's right hand side, meaning he is below God, not part of the same.

 

[dteowner]

Would this be a bad time to mention that your first post and another one later in the thread specifically requested that certain people not speak?

Don't let yourself get bogged down. Ask your questions. While a few of us might poke a few holes in the dogma as they come up, I don't think there will be any malice there (other than JemyM, who's a malicious godless bastard). The intent will be to enhance the discussion and not to destroy it.


(Just playin', JemyM. I find that these types of threads need the occasional injection of silliness to keep from collapsing from their own gravity. My apologies if anyone misses my intent.)

 

[blatantninja]

A leap of faith is easy for people who've been taught to believe in a certain way (especially since there is no leap to speak of anyway).

I've also read about Non-Trinitarian views. Many who believe that that view is older and thus more authentic than the Trinitarian view which has been arranged by the Council of Nicea I believe.
How did the Trinity actually come to be ?
The Holy Spirit in the OT has never actually been defined as something else than God himself. It usually was to say that God was about to do something or that his presence was there.
Jesus himself also said several times that the Father knows more than him. In one of the Apostles dreams I believe it is also said that Jesus is on God's right hand side, meaning he is below God, not part of the same.

The concept Trinity predates the Council of Nicea, but I believe that is more or less when it became 'official' doctrine.

I view Jesus as the physical manifestation of God in this world. So he is God, but isn't quite ALL of God. It's a tough concept, and one that I have struggled with myself.

 

[JemyM]

At some point you have to take a 'leap of faith.' That's true with any religion. And like I said, I don't see the stories of the other Gospels (outside of Judas at least) to be significantly different on the important parts.

On the top of my head, the ressurection is different in each one. Then one of them say that divorce is ok while another do not. The chronology before the last supper is different. In Matthew, Jesus is definitely a jew, in other's he's not. I can give you a list on the differences if you like.

 

[JemyM]

Yes, saying someone is wrong is good, but while someone is speaking, let him finish and then tell him of his mistakes. By not letting him speak, you will just discredit the person, making them not listen to you at all. Think about conferences where ideas are thrown. If I'd say: I think this is a good... and then you'd scream NO. You're not letting me finish, making me not want to listen to you. If you just disrespect people, your voice will only be heard through violence.
If you can't respect other people's ideas then it's not worth respecting yours, it's that simple.
Respecting, listening and agreeing are all different, but without respect you won't achieve anything else.

There's a difference between dealing with a person and dealing with a belief. An attack on a belief system is not an attack on the person. If they are discredited by clinging on to something which is attacked, then it's still not them who are attacked. The thing with Christianity and Islam is that the ideology tries really hard to make their religions seem like races or families, when they are not that different from political ideologies. This makes them feel like they are attacked when their beliefs are questioned, since they cannot tell the difference between their own identity and the belief system. This is a group instinct or a sort of tribalism that can be rather dangerous, often exploited by sects, cults and other radical groups.

And while it does not sound like it, I am very diplomatic when dealing with strangers live... I seldom debate with christians, nor do I debate with political groups if I can avoid it. I even got an Imam telling me that I am a great person, after explaining to him why Islam was not that different from any other belief...

Having studied alot of political philosophy and I can usually discuss ideas without taking positions for or against. When I am trying to be diplomatic I try to expand perspectives, making them more difficult to take side on, rather than picking a side myself and then stick with it.

 

[Corwin]

JemyM, your potted history of Christianity and the Bible from earlier in the thread bears almost no relationship to what is actually in the Bible. As a simple example, there is NO mention of apples and Adam and Eve were never up in Heaven. Let's discuss some serious questions while Dte interjects in his usual adroit manner.

 

[blatantninja]

On the top of my head, the ressurection is different in each one. Then one of them say that divorce is ok while another do not. The chronology before the last supper is different. In Matthew, Jesus is definitely a jew, in other's he's not. I can give you a list on the differences if you like.

There's pretty much not a single shread of truth in any of that.

 

[Pladio]

Then at least provide passages in the Bible then for what you're talking about because then people can discuss it instead of saying : It's true
No it's not
Yes it is
No it's not
.
.
.

 

[Pladio]

Would this be a bad time to mention that your first post and another one later in the thread specifically requested that certain people not speak?

You're going on the hush list too !

I view Jesus as the physical manifestation of God in this world. So he is God, but isn't quite ALL of God. It's a tough concept, and one that I have struggled with myself.

Actually the concept itself is quite easy to follow for me. If you follow the next line of thought.

God can do everything. So... God can create a human being who is God too. God can also make a Spirit which does stuff. All three of them are God, but they're not God himself.


Like the question : If God can do everything, can he make a rock which he cannot lift? The answer is simply yes, since God could make a rock which he could lift yet not lift at the same time.

My question is from whence did the concept come from ?
According to Jewish beliefs, when it says Rouach Hakodesh in the OT it just means the Holy Spirit or the Holy Wind, but it is just another name of God, like Shaddai, Elohim, El, Elokim, Hashem, Yehovah...

Even if Jesus is God, how did the Holy Spirit become a separate entity all of a sudden ?
Where, why and how was the Trinity born?

 

[JemyM]

There's pretty much not a single shread of truth in any of that.

Doh. Everyone who have a bible at home can actually place it on the table, place a notebook next to it, then write down the events after the ressurection from each of the four gospels then simply compare them. A professor on the NT, Bart D Ehrman, often asks his students to do this in class. It's a good test, because one must be blatantly ignorant to still say it's untrue that the gospels are radically different from eachother.

Many theologians have pondered this issue... and then there are those who makes fun of it. To make things worse, in most modern bibles there's tiny mark in the edge of the bible right before the resurrection in Mark. The reason for this is that it was discovered that the resurrection is a later addition to Mark. In the original gospel, the resurrection story simply wasn't there. So what you have four different versions, and the one in what's known as the first gospel added by someone different than the original author.

You can make the same thing with several of the events, such as the fig tree.

 

[blatantninja]

Yes, there are details that are different, which is understandable as explained in the other thread, but that is not what you said in your post.

On the top of my head, the ressurection is different in each one. Then one of them say that divorce is ok while another do not. The chronology before the last supper is different. In Matthew, Jesus is definitely a jew, in other's he's not. I can give you a list on the differences if you like.

In none of the Gospels does it say that Jesus is not a Jew. I'm also not aware of any that say divorce is ok.

So how about some quotes to back up your ascertaitions?

 

[titus]

I am no expert in Christian beliefs but I am raised as one.
Although I am not a christian anymore. I don't know what I am. I have been someone who didn't believe in anything except what man can do itself. Since recently I became very much interested in Budhuism because it IS NOT a religion but a way of life.

just saying all that you can place what I say in the right context

Christianity has become the biggest belief of all. And even now I celebrate Christmas, Easter and I do enjoy the other Christian holidays wich give us free at school or work. but I do not particpate in all. I participate at easter and Christmas, but not for there real reason but just out of tradition.

I think a lot of christians are like that. there aren't that much that are real true christians anymore and go to church every sonday.

The ten commandants: well if it is true what happened there or not doesn't matter. It is true that they had a huge affect on life, even know. and you live real nice and good as you follow them. 3 of them work vertical to god and 7 of them work on human interaction (wich are the important onces.)

If you want to know more about christianity you should also know a basis of Juidism because Christianity comes of Juidism.

This is my two cents for now. If I got something in my mind I will post more.

 

[blatantninja]

Christianity has become the biggest belief of all. And even now I celebrate Christmas, Easter and I do enjoy the other Christian holidays wich give us free at school or work. but I do not particpate in all. I participate at easter and Christmas, but not for there real reason but just out of tradition.

I think a lot of christians are like that. there aren't that much that are real true christians anymore and go to church every sonday.

We call those C & E Christians!

 

[Corwin]

Yeah, Church of England!!

 

[Pladio]

I'll respond in the other thread a bit later, but about the ten commandments, they're actually different for Catholics, Anglicans, Orthodox and Jews...

For Jews, They're divided into 5 towards God and 5 towards the fellow man. The last two of the first five are in a common area though. They are both towards God and towards the fellow man.

 

[Pladio]

In Europe that is, go to Africa and they go to church every week, some even more ...

 

[Corwin]

The10 Commandments are interesting. The Catholics cut out the one about graven images and split the 10th into 2 parts. Unfortunately the Bible also says anyone who makes such a change is cursed!!

However, technically Christians aren't 'under' the 10 C's, but rather are supposed to follow the 2 C's (which basically incorporate the main concepts of the 10). Love the Lord your God and Love your neighbour. If we all did that, much of the ills of the world would disappear.

 

[JemyM]

In none of the Gospels does it say that Jesus is not a Jew.

To understand why one must know about the conflict in the early church. On one side you have the first Christians, the Jewish Christians, the Ebionites of Jerusalem that looked up to James, Jesus Brother. They used a version of Matthew. The gospel of Matthew was aimed at the Jews, it's the most Jewish gospel of the four and it goes to great length to establish Jesus as the messiah. It's also in Matthew say that the old testament law still apply, he do not do this in the other gospels. The Ebionites saw Paul as a heretic who turned a Jewish prophet into a Gentile prophet and claimed against Jesus that the old laws no longer applied.

Then there were Pauline Christians who rejected the Torah and James and took the connection with the Torah as a mistake. They used Luke as their gospel and mixed it with Greek philosophy and gnostic Christianity (trails of this can still be found in NT). This conflict between Jewish Christianity and Pauline Christianity initiated the Christian antisemitism that is still with us today.

It was later, with Constantine and Eusebius, that both Pauls letters and the Torah was accepted into canon and they still disagree.

I'm also not aware of any that say divorce is ok.

According to Matt 5:31-32 a man can divorce a woman if she commits adultery.
According to Mark 10:2-12 a man can not divorce a woman who committed adultery.

(Not to mention how horribly discriminating Matt 5:31-32 is against women... and they say Islam is bad...)