JE Sawyer on Romance

[txa1265]

Thisn't specific to NWN2, since he came in too late to have a bearing on that, but he has some comments on it in CRPG's in a thread on the Obsidian forums (http://forums.obsidianent.com/index.php?showtopic=44687&st=120&p=725311&#entry725311):


I don't hate love in game stories; I just hate reducing love to shallow, masturbatory fantasy indulgence. Maybe that's all love is to some people, but I think that's a pretty narrow view. Ego-stroking is very popular in CRPGs, which is one reason I don't feel comfortable doing CRPG writing anymore.

I appreciate that people wanted more romance options in NWN2, but sometimes I think that people want there to be romance "victory" conditions for all companions. I think that can diminish some characters. For instance, if Shandra and Qara had their own romance plots, I think some people would still want Neeshka to be "romance-able", regardless of how Neeshka's author felt about the character's place in the story.

That bugs me. I don't like the idea that you can "win" everything or get everyone on your side. I'm also not fond of the idea that romance always has to resolve with a "fade out" to implied coitus, but that's another issue.

I'll re-state what I wrote before: I want romance to receive either less or more attention in games. Anything worth doing is worth doing well, especially when it's something with so much emotional potential. But I certainly don't want to go the route of harem anime (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harem_anime), which is total fantasy indulgence and gross pandering.

I like romances in RPG, but more in the sense of 'relationship building' rather than '7 steps to bedding your elf'. So I like that Bastilla stands with you in KotOR, and that you can take Jaheira through the final battle of BG2: ToB and beyond.

[Acleacius]

Thanks for this. :)

Did JE Sawyer have anythig to do with romances KotOR or BG2, just asking since I am not sure.

I need to read the full thread and I haven't had time but sometimes JE Sawyer seems annoying.
I think it's great he has idea's he wants to explore, problem is of course the current system isn't perfect we all know that and the reason people want all NPCs to be available, whether it's women wanting all the guys to possibly be availble as would the guys want the girls to be availble, it's part of the game.
Romances are considered mini games and if some writers want to end with badda boom and others don't that seems perfectly fine.
No ones has ever said they have to be the same, people (gals and guys) just want the options

The idea that he complains about ego rubbing in games seems nutz, what the hell is the whole savior of the village, city, realm, world, dimension and galaxies?
All of sudden the fact that I have more POWER than anyone else in the known game and just because gamers are intrested in Romaces, we are talking thousands of threads here on all known gaming forums, it's no go because it's not realistic or believable enough?
And who are these people having Romances that don't get Badda Boom is this some new trend were in RL people meet and when attracked to each other they go killing sprees to showthere affection? :p

[txa1265]

some new trend were in RL people meet and when attracked to each other they go killing sprees to showthere affection? :p

You mean this *isn't* how it happens ... hmmm ... looks like I better talk to the wife about where the kids came from ...

:D

[Corwin]

The point he misses, is that restricting a romance to one NPC is counter-productive. In NWN2 it's the druid, fine; except a lot of people seem to dislike her, so there goes the entire option. What if I were playing a druid? I'd never use the char!! There needs to be 2 or 3 options to cater to both character types and player types!!

[fatBastard()]

Very true Corwin ... besides I've always had a thing for chicks with horns you can hold onto while she's down there :blush:

[Thaurin]

Oookay...

But what if you want to cheat on a companion with another one? Why can't I do that??

Catfiiight!

[txa1265]

The point he misses, is that restricting a romance to one NPC is counter-productive. In NWN2 it's the druid, fine; except a lot of people seem to dislike her, so there goes the entire option. What if I were playing a druid? I'd never use the char!! There needs to be 2 or 3 options to cater to both character types and player types!!

If you traverse the thread, you'll see that he doesn't miss that point - in fact, he thinks that the developers missed it! His point is that the 'i am teh w1nn3r' mentality of romance in RPG's is immature and limited.

He also says that developers need to spend either more or less time on the romace aspects - less=none for him, since he thinks they are already woefully underdeveloped.

I would have liked more options for romance and/or relationship building in NWN2 - there were enough hints that I 'got it' that Elanee was a choice, but had I not seen that I wouldn't have carted her around so much ...

[Corwin]

Actually, if you consider hints and dialogue, [someone else] was a MUCH better and more likely candidate as well as being more 'universally' likeable!!

[txa1265]

Remember - we're in the non-spoiler area!

But that aside, I totally agree - and by then I had entered the 'spoiler' forum at Bioware and seen a thread that id's the only possible romances in the title, so I was completely let down!

[magerette]

Interesting topic.
Reading that Obsidian thread reminds me why I seldom lurk over there or Bio any more, especially when the one poster reminds Sawyer he's in the entertainment biz so why shouldn't he be pandering his ass off?

Perhaps that was tongue in cheek, but the message is pretty clear--the demands of the superficial user should take precedence over the creative vision of the developers. That you have to be true to a creative vision if you are to produce anything memorable is just not understood.

I don't think anyone could make a good game this way--i.e., as a popularity contest, and that's why feedback from fanbois at this kind of level is often so destructive IMO.

And what element could be harder to develop than a good well-rounded romance, let alone several of them? In addition to making sure everything is appropriately arranged-- from dialogue that can project the personality of the various npcs to the way they progress the storyline--you have the pressure to produce credible, meaningful relationships, the scripting for realistic and in depth responses, etc. You can see why this element is most often left out, rightly or wrongly. Most people have a hard time with this in real life :p

love to see it happen, tho.

anyway, just some thoughts.

[Acleacius]

I think I disagree, I see it as JE Sawyer's fault, if he wants to make more complex relationships no one is stopping him he chooses not make them as effective as he wants because there are other major proiorities before complex relationships, which is why there aren't lots of them in games.
Yet he is basicly critizing other Devs and there current solutions which many have fun with reguardless if they are not the most complex relationships on the planet. :)

Many people on this site are very experienced gamers if not hardcore and I would bet the majority of us have spent the time to play out relationships in games not based on the complexity of them but more based on the experience much like a quest.
They can be fun, intresting and entertaining without being the gratest romance ever like any quest, well imo atm. :)

[magerette]

Well, Acleasius, I think I understand what you're saying. My interpretation of Sawyer's statement, admittedly after just a quick read-thru, was that if romance wasn't well-implemented, it was better not to do it at all. But if romance is a higher priority with you, then perhaps having some is better than having none,even if it isn't the greatest.

I still would rather have nothing than that lousy romance with the whiny paladin in BG2. Using your example of a quest, if it's broken because it wasn't implemented properly, it isn't much fun to find out half way thru that it doesn't work. What's the point of putting a romance in if it's only going to make you want to kick the character out of your party?:)

But I agree that romance can add something to a game, and more people should try to do it right. Just because it's hard is no reason not to try.

[Acleacius]

That's true, any quest Romance or other especially involving lots of steps and time when broken/breaks is infuriating.
I personally just view Romances as another quest, though if they do improve maybe they will be more important.
It just seems to be a common topic and since Romance is part of every culture it makes it even more difficult to satisfy everyone.
Mods go along way to solving this, as in Sith Lords and maybe KotOR they removed the gender requirements, iir allowing more possible choice in Romances.

I certainly could be misunderstanding JE Sawyer, its perfectly fine not to do something because he can't do it to his satisfaction, it's more his almost contemptuous attitude as I mentioned earlier about ego rubbing, as if the concept of town, world or galaxies is based on ego rubbing.
So with comments like that he seems to be attacking others for their attempts even though they are working with limited technologies at least they are trying.
Without their efforts, initiative, mistakes and successes there's no evidence he would ever have considered or thought of doing Romances in the first place.

[magerette]

It's hard to speak for someone else, so I can't say I really know what Sawyer meant. I just got the impression that he didn't think romance should be power-gamed, and that the plot cliche ego-stroking in crpgs was what he thought was excessive, meaning that the player always has to be the child of a god or powerful demon, that you always have the destiny to save the world, that you are the one that everyone in every village needs to make their life work out, etc.

Of course, if you were this Donald Trump-like person, I'm sure you would have all the 'badda boom' anyone could want, so it all fits in from that point of view.:)

"Mods go along way to solving this, as in Sith Lords and maybe KotOR they removed the gender requirements, iir allowing more possible choice in Romances."

You're scaring me with that one, Acleasius. ;)

[Acleacius]

Lol, why?
Many RPGs take 30 or more hours to complete just once, if I have to look at the back of a character for that long I sure the hell don't want to be looking at some guy's butt and If I am playing a female in a game I don't want to Romance a guy. :p

[Sorcha Ravenlock]

I think if Romance is well done, it can be a lot of fun. I loved the romance in KOTOR (Carth). possibly one of the few for-female romance options I actually liked in a game.

I like romances in games. for me, relationships are important, inclusding friendship, family, and romance. And I believe a lot of RPGs skip that or only barely touch it.

Then again, I can see the problems, because romance is so personal. The NPC one person likes the other hates (I can't stand Neeshka, she really grates on my nerves, for example), and if you make all NPCs romanceable, the devs will be spending a large chunk of time on that, inevitably cutting short on other things.
Especially in an RPG like NWN2. My human female rogue will have a very different opinion of what is an acceptable mate then my female Dwarven cleric, or my little halfling wizard.
And then take into account that a group of people will want same sex romance with appropriate dialog as well, and that there are people who don't like romance in games at all, and a developer will be sticking a lot of time and money into (spoken) dialog only a very small group of people will experience.

So, while I would love to see fully fleshed out romances for every available race and alignment, I can see why that doesn't happen. Or this quite often leaves us with more generic feeling romances, or romances with NPCs we just wouldn't have picked ourselves...

[Corwin]

You have a valid point, but offering 2 choices per gender would not be unreasonable!!

[Sorcha Ravenlock]

You have a valid point, but offering 2 choices per gender would not be unreasonable!!


that is very true, and what also annoys me if male characters get more options then females. That always really reminds me of how male-orientated this industry still is...

[Corwin]

Actually, I thought the females got 2 and the males only 1!!

[txa1265]

that is very true, and what also annoys me if male characters get more options then females. That always really reminds me of how male-orientated this industry still is...

I think that the quest-nature of romance and the direct transition to implied coitis also reflect much on the maturity of the game dev community ...

[txa1265]

Actually, I thought the females got 2 and the males only 1!!

True - females got Carth or Juhani (sp), guys just got Bastilla.

I loved Bastilla - as a light sider she was great to romance, and as a dark-sider she was great to torment ;)

[Sorcha Ravenlock]

True - females got Carth or Juhani (sp), guys just got Bastilla.

I loved Bastilla - as a light sider she was great to romance, and as a dark-sider she was great to torment ;)

Ah, I thought there were two females to romance, hence two romance options for the males :D

NWN1 only had one for the females though (and what a horible one, I so wanted to romance Tomi instead, hehe) whereas the males had several who at least hinted at the option. And BG2 had more romances for male characters, I believe.

[txa1265]

So what would people rather see:
- More romances similar to what we get now?
- Fewer romances with more depth?

Obviously the answer is both! But since *that* isn't likely ...

[Corwin]

Fewer with more depth, but some choice as to whom!! Who really wanted to have no-one but Jaheira as an option for example!! I ditched her as fast as I could. In BG1 she got killed and NEVER ressurected!!

[Sorcha Ravenlock]

I agree with Corwin, maybe two or three choices (per sex) that have a reasonable depth would be very nice :)

[txa1265]

Who really wanted to have no-one but Jaheira as an option for example!! I ditched her as fast as I could. In BG1 she got killed and NEVER ressurected!!
That is why I was glad I played BG2 first ... it was a complex Romance all about balance and strength of convictions, and I wouldn't have ever bothered if I had played BG1 first - I *hated*her in BG1 as well.

Like the new Avatar, Sorcha - where is that from?

[Sorcha Ravenlock]

I tend to dabble with Daz Studio in my free time, creating renders. My avatar is part of a larger render I did a while ago:

http://img171.imageshack.us/img171/70/guardiandevil22dy9.jpg

(probably not suitable for work or around kids ;) )

Thank you for the compiment :)

[txa1265]

My avatar is part of a larger render I did a while ago:

OMG ... +4 nipples of lethality! :D

[Sorcha Ravenlock]

:D
I have less naked renders, hehe, but I liked the face on this one, so it's my Avatar ;)
Besides that, with (non) armor like that, who'd think off attacking ;)

[Acleacius]

Great job, Sorcha Ravenlock I like it very much. :)

[Corwin]

Definitely Stunning armor!! :biggrin:

[PatrickWeekes]

Sawyer's post really irked me, and I've been thinking about why. Some of it relates to what I do as a designer, and some of it relates to what I do as a player. It's all subjective, and milieage is going to vary for everyone, but:

I don't hate love in game stories; I just hate reducing love to shallow, masturbatory fantasy indulgence.

This is like Jessica Alba saying that she wouldn't strip in Sin City because she didn't want to be seen as just a sex object. Jessica, you are just a sex object. That's all you have going for you. Sawyer, you do write masturbatory fantasy indulgence.

When I come home from a long day at work, make dinner, clean up after dinner, and help put my little dude to bed, I've got about half an hour to do something on my own time before it's time for me to do evening chores and head for bed. I'm not looking for a sword-holding simulation complete with gangrenous leg wounds and a terrifying fear of combat. I'm looking to be the hero who whacks bad guys. I'm looking for comfort in the realm of the heroic. Yes, it's an indulgence, because I spent $60 Canadian to indulge myself. It's only a shallow indulgence if it's badly written.

Maybe that's all love is to some people, but I think that's a pretty narrow view. Ego-stroking is very popular in CRPGs, which is one reason I don't feel comfortable doing CRPG writing anymore.

And anyone who feels differently from Sawyer is therefore a narrow-minded masturbatory writer.

I appreciate that people wanted more romance options in NWN2, but sometimes I think that people want there to be romance "victory" conditions for all companions. I think that can diminish some characters.

Imagine that coming out of the mouth of your DM. Every time I've heard the DM scold the players for wanting to "win", every time, it ends up being one of two things:

1) The players want a simple victory, and the DM wants to give more shades of gray and moral ambiguity, which ends up being a case of the players and the DM wanting two different things.
2) The DM is railroading the players.

If it's (2), you're taking choice away from the players in the hopes of telling a good story. That's either a sign of clumsiness or an indication that you're working in the wrong genre.

If it's (1), well, different people want different things. In a tabletop game with buddies, that's all well and good, and either the game changes or the group breaks up. In a product that everyone paid $60 Canadian to buy, "You are a stupid immature person for wanting that" is a line of argument you want to use carefully. Don't get me wrong -- there are gonna be people who want stuff in Mass Effect that isn't gonna be there. There are people saying that Dragon Age will be pointless and stupid unless they can choose to be left-handed as part of their character concept. And yeah, there's a point at which the designers have to delicately tell the customer, "Uh, no, this is what you're getting. You want to complain about it, fine. You want to never buy another one of our products because you couldn't be left-handed? Fine. We will struggle to survive without your sinister presence."

But I'm not sure that "I wanted more than one romance per gender" is that point.

It's just disingenuous, this whole line of reasoning:

Anything worth doing is worth doing well, especially when it's something with so much emotional potential. But I certainly don't want to go the route of harem anime, which is total fantasy indulgence and gross pandering.

I don't think anybody was arguing for harem anime, at least not anyone taking part in the serious discussion. But in one cute little rhetorical swoop, wanting to have an actual adult relationship in the game has been equated with wanting a bevy of nubile pixelated nymphs to do your bidding.

As a player, I'm insulted, and it sounds like a designer making excuses by going on the attack.

As a designer, I'm disappointed, because Obsidian is the only other company out there making games like the ones I love, the ones I joined BioWare to make -- and hearing an Obsidian designer slam everybody else is sad.

I'm not slamming Obsidian as a whole -- heck, I'm enjoying the story of NWN2 right now -- but comments like that bum me out and tick me off.

[Corwin]

WOW, what a great post from an insider!! It's refreshing to hear your thoughts from the perspective of both designer and player. Simple choice is definitely not a point of separation between dev and player as you point out. All most of us asked for was a choice between 2 options, rather than just the one decreed from above. Can you imagine the impact if you'd romanced an NPC only to have them die as part of the plot??!! On second thoughts, the screams of outrage might be too much!! :)

[aboyd]

Sawyer's post really irked me, and I've been thinking about why.

You made a good post, there. I liked a lot of it. But you've pigeonholed Josh, especially in light of the revelation that he's going to resurrect BH as a free module. Case in point, let's look at another quote.


In a product that everyone paid $60 Canadian to buy, "You are a stupid immature person for wanting that" is a line of argument you want to use carefully.
How do you know that he's referring to a $60 product? In fact, in that thread he says, "writing as I see fit isn't likely to be popular, so I don't do it anymore." It seems like an acknowledgement that how he wants things to be is different from how his corporate taskmasters want things to be, and he keeps them separate.


I don't think anybody was arguing for harem anime, at least not anyone taking part in the serious discussion. But in one cute little rhetorical swoop, wanting to have an actual adult relationship in the game has been equated with wanting a bevy of nubile pixelated nymphs to do your bidding.
But that's not what he did. He took a shot at sloppy shallow romances. That doesn't mean he's taking a shot at "an actual adult relationship." In fact, it looks like that's what he's arguing for. Perhaps you two are not as far apart as you think?

[Maylander]

In my opinion, we should seperate romances and admirers.

On one hand, you have romances like the ones you can have with Jaheria, Viconia and so on. For such a romance in an RPG to mean something as a gameplay element, it must be done properly, otherwise they can just have a brothel option like Gothic 2 did.

On the other hand, a hero in a fantasy universe is like a rock star today, and they litteraly get panties tossed at them. If anything, having admirers might increase realism and feeling of being a hero, instead of having to work your butt off to get a girl - great heroes don't work hard to get girls (James Bond, anyone?)

Ego-stroking will always have a high focus in tales of great heroes. There's just no way around that - realistically, the hero would get butchered when badly outnumbered. There is no such thing as a one man army. Leaders can make a difference, as inspiration and in terms of tactics, but they can't kill hundreds on their own.

There's nothing wrong with such ego-stroking in games. A one man army, if he existed, would not find it hard to get laid. What I feel Sawyer fails to point out is the fact that you can have sex in a game without it being a romance. A proper romance requires a bit of depth and good writing. Some admirer wanting to sleep with the great hero doesn't qualify as a "romance" to me.

I don't see the problem in having either, or both, in a game, as long as we use the proper terms.

[PatrickWeekes]

You made a good post, there. I liked a lot of it. But you've pigeonholed Josh, especially in light of the revelation that he's going to resurrect BH as a free module.

I may have pigeonholed Josh -- I'm open to debate on that. Let's keep BH out of it, though.

How do you know that he's referring to a $60 product? In fact, in that thread he says, "writing as I see fit isn't likely to be popular, so I don't do it anymore." It seems like an acknowledgement that how he wants things to be is different from how his corporate taskmasters want things to be, and he keeps them separate.

Well, I know he's referring to a $60 product because that's how much NWN2 costs up in my neck of the woods, and the entire initial complaint was about the paucity of romances in NWN2. When he says that gamers are too caught up in the idea of "winning", he makes specific reference to two characters that people thought should have romances but instead have dead-end character paths that people think were once supposed to be romances. So... he's not talking about a free module he's making. He's defending his game (which is good), and he's doing so by saying that the gamers just aren't mature enough to appreciate the depth of his story (which is less good).

But that's not what he did. He took a shot at sloppy shallow romances. That doesn't mean he's taking a shot at "an actual adult relationship." In fact, it looks like that's what he's arguing for. Perhaps you two are not as far apart as you think?

It's very possible. To me, that post read like he was taking a shot at all romances except the ones he wrote. Since I haven't written anything that's seen the light of day, I'm not personally offended, but as somebody who "won" the romance with Jaheira and then later "won" the romance with Carth, I didn't see them as shallow ego-pandering. I got to be heroic and cool, yeah, but nobody was swooning at my feet. Heck, in Jade, you could have a threesome with Dawn Star and Silk Fox, and I thought that even that stayed on the right side of the line (although I personally would never leave my sweetie Dawn Star, even to part-time it with that crazy princess).

He didn't say "There are some great ones out there, and those are the ones I'd like to see emulated." He said "romances need more work (done well) or less work (not done)". That's an empty-calorie statement unless you actually start talking about specifics.

It's like if I said, "I think that it's possible to have a good story set in the Forgotten Realms, but a lot of today's Forgotten Realms CRPG stories end up being racist. I don't like writing racist games, which is why I'm not into writing anymore. I'd like to see the racism in the Forgotten Realms handled with more nuance, or not at all."

Yeah, I haven't slammed any one game, and I've left myself the wiggle room with "a lot of" so that if somebody defends a specific game, I can make a vague, "Oh, I wasn't talking about any game in particular, I was just making an observation" defense. It's being vague in order to get away with an insult that the insultee can't possibly miss.

Honestly, while his post did irk me, I can acknowledge that he's probably just trying to pick his words carefully. It's easier to talk about gamers being too concerned with winning and developers wanting to make deeper and more complex stories (which no gamer can argue against without sounding like a loser) than it is to say, "You know, Wizards gutted the romances. Said that what we were doing might confuse players who'd signed up for monster-whacking, said that it was too complex for the target audience. So we're left with two months until ship and no romances, and we pretty much had to pick our battles and settle for one romance option per gender -- the safe one that we'd put in just in case Wizards did exactly what they ended up doing, gutting the romances. We fixed what we could on the timeline we had, and we wrote some really abridged stuff for the NPCs who used to be romanceable to fill in the gaps."

(That's all hypothetical. I don't know that that ever happened on a BioWare game, and I have no idea what happened on Obsidian's NWN2. But I do know that in NWN1, Wizards wanted a game that teenagers would be comfortable playing, and that would have little to no risk of sparking controversy for sexual content, especially given its multiplayer and modding capability. Hence, no kissing animation out of the box, and no real romances until Hordes, which even then were almost entirely platonic. Nice, but platonic. As a designer, I wished BioWare had had the chance to write more grown-up romances. As a designer as well, though, I can understand and respect Wizards' position, because the people who make kids' games certainly don't want a Hot Coffee deal going on, even with mods.)

[Corwin]

Yes, Patrick, but has Wizards missed its true audience? I don't think the teenies buy/play NWN in large numbers. They prefer GTA and similar games, many of which are not T rated!! The audience for NWN games, is (I think, but don't have the stats to support it) the older game players who enjoy the depth a good RPG should have. Sure some teens do play it, but if you use a site like this as a reasonable cross-section, you won't find it filled with teenies. Most of us are MUCH older!! :)

[PatrickWeekes]

Heh. That's a much different argument. For my money, the short version is:

1) You're right.
2) Wizards wishes that you weren't, and is trying to make it so that you're not.
3) The connection between NWN and pen & paper D&D made it more important for NWN to be younger-gamer-friendly, so that there'd be no situation in which a pen & paper player was put off of NWN because of the story. (If they're put off by the rules incorporation, that's a different problem, of course.) :)

[Corwin]

Hahaha, how true!! Tough luck for Wizards and Hasbro, but they need to get a reality check!! My teenage son wouldn't touch a 'Teen' game with a 10 foot barge pole!! :)

[Acleacius]

"It's refreshing to hear your thoughts from the perspective of both designer and player."

Yes, nice to see PatrickWeekes, posting. :)

"But you've pigeonholed Josh, especially in light of the revelation that he's going to resurrect BH as a free module."

I don't see it that way at all, we are all talking specificly about his comments reguarding Romances.
Everyone has bad days, makes dumb comments but doesn't mean we should discuss them or that we are attacking him personally, this is about his incorrect views or poorly worded intentional thoughts on Romance in games. ;)

"How do you know that he's referring to a $60 product?"

He was talking about NWN2, afaik and not sure about the dollar conversion but in the US it was released at $50 to $65 counting the CE, iirc.

"But that's not what he did."

Yes it is becuase used the excuse of "Ego Rubbing" which while not being 100% of what games are about it currectly is a huge part, not only that its a big part of all the entertainment business, which can be done well or not.

The the moral of this story is don't kick other Devs and gamers in the kneecaps when your having a bad day as a game designer, cause we bite back. :p

[xSamhainx]

I tend to dabble with Daz Studio in my free time, creating renders. My avatar is part of a larger render I did a while ago:

http://img171.imageshack.us/img171/70/guardiandevil22dy9.jpg

(probably not suitable for work or around kids ;) )

Thank you for the compiment :)

Hmm, somehow this one got by me! I was wondering where your av came from.
Looks like I got some new desktop wallpaper for the week, very nice.

Got any more? ='.'=

[Corwin]

Naughty Sammy, she's a married woman!! :)

[Acleacius]

But she dabbles. ;)

Actually I was wondering if she would make the eyes the same color as the armor and try maybe a red head, blonde or even bright white hair? :)

[Sorcha Ravenlock]

I made a seperate thread in Off topic to show of my work, so we don't derail this thread any further:
http://www.rpgwatch.com/forums/showthread.php?p=15932#post15932
I hope no-one minds the shameless self-promotion of my work...

Acleacius, you should find some blondes and redheads there as well :)

[Corwin]

No, we appreciate talent in all forms!!

[xSamhainx]

Yes, just some forms a little more than others! *winks!*

[Jaz]

Actually, I thought the females got 2 and the males only 1!!In Jade Empire, guys got four different romance options, girls just two... I had to replay that game so often just because to try out all the options.

I'm not sure if I need deep exploration of in-game romances. I'm used to filling in stuff and making assumptions in games all the time, so I can get by with very little, and make up the rest myself.

[Acleacius]

Well it's getting very close to release time, well for us PC gamers, so with your recomendation and PatrickWeeks I feel comfortable looking forword to this title in the next month. :)

Has anyone heard if Bioware intends on releasing or supporting mods as in their other titles like NWN and KotOR?
I may have answered my own question there, but if Bioware does treat JE as their previous titles I am even a little more excited since this could mean many, many mods for JE. ;)

Maybe PatrickWeeks is still lurking in the shadows and will pounce from the vast darkness weilding Daggers of Deat..... errr Truth. :p

So Jaz there could certianlly be more romance options for females, with potiental mods, especially if they remove the gender barriers.

[txa1265]

Has anyone heard if Bioware intends on releasing or supporting mods as in their other titles like NWN and KotOR?.
The mod support between those games is *very* different, though ... I suspect that any 'support' would be more like KotOR and less like NWN.

[Acleacius]

That's true I guess me mentioning NWN wasn't a good example and I certianly hope (and meant) it's similar to KotOR.
I guess we would need some talented coder like Fred Tetra whom made the Kotor Tool which allowed most (all?) of the mods and really hope the Holowan team or even some new team will be intrigued by JE. :)

[txa1265]

I guess we would need some talented coder like Fred Tetra whom made the Kotor Tool which allowed most (all?) of the mods and really hope the Holowan team or even some new team will be intrigued by JE. :)
Being a long time Star Wars geek & fan, I have some friends who do KotOR mods on Holowon ... talented folks!

[Jaz]

So Jaz there could certianlly be more romance options for females, with potiental mods, especially if they remove the gender barriers.Yeah, that would have been great (though I already included the homosexual relationships in the JE romance count). Too bad I'm not a habitual mod-user :(.

[PatrickWeekes]

Well it's getting very close to release time, well for us PC gamers, so with your recomendation and PatrickWeeks I feel comfortable looking forword to this title in the next month. :)

It took me a second to realize that you were talking about Jade PC and not Neverwinter 2.

Has anyone heard if Bioware intends on releasing or supporting mods as in their other titles like NWN and KotOR?
I may have answered my own question there, but if Bioware does treat JE as their previous titles I am even a little more excited since this could mean many, many mods for JE. ;)

Well, there's bad news and good news.

The bad news is that I haven't heard anything about doing stuff like that. That doesn't mean it isn't happening, but, well, there are only so many employees at the company. If there were huge plans afoot, it would probably be public at this point (uh, public to me, not public to you).

The good news is that the big happy difference between the PC and the XBox is that making mods and such available is a ton easier. So my incredibly bold and not at all wishy-washy prediction is that it's gonna depend upon the sales:

- If JadePC sells well, then people in the company will figure that it's worth supporting, and you'll see additional plots -- maybe some that open up during the game itself (simply adding new areas to the map, as happened in Tales of the Sword Coast, for example), and/or others that are short mods (the JadePC equivalent of Witch's Wake, for example).
- If JadePC doesn't sell particularly well -- and this isn't an "Oh, clouds of doom!" scenario; it's a several-year-old game, and yeah, there's a good chance that it will sell enough to help the overall Jade Empire IP but not well enough to be a smash hit in its own right -- then I'd be surprised if we saw anything more than, say, a few new monsters popping out in patches or a couple of additional models for the PC.

The hopeful news, in between the good news and the bad news, is that Jade PC uses the Aurora engine, which means that fan-made content is a viable possibility. That's going to be in there next to "If it sells well" -- I don't BELIEVE that Jade PC comes with a custom-content toolset, and I kinda think we'd be crowing about that at high volume if it were in there, but given how closely the conversation editor was to NWN's conversation editor, it can't be THAT hard to make new content. (Now, new maps? New maps are really hard. You'd need some experienced people to generate content for you that way.)

And to dash some hopes, I can pretty much guarantee that there aren't any new romances in the PC version. New monsters, new styles, and possibly a few new plots, but nothing that would have required bringing back the old voice actors for new material.

But we should probably be talking about this in a thread that isn't "JE Sawyer on Romance". :)