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May 21st, 2013, 17:17
Originally Posted by DArtagnan View Post
No, it's not necessarily "the cause". I'm talking about the origin of deficiency - and it can be due to a LOT of things. For instance, it can be due to alchoholism or drugs.
B12 deficiency is a cause of depression, being the origin of the depression.

The origin of the B12 deficiency… Yes, I agree, the deficiency can be due to a lot of things:
certain gene mutations, lack of IF (intrinsic factor), lack of animal products in the diet, eating disorders, pancreatic insufficiency, parasites, Helicobacter pylori, coeliac disease, Crohns disease, gastritis, gastrectomy, transcobalamin II deficiency, long-term use of proton-pump inhibitors (to block stomach acid production) like esomeprazole (Nexium), lansoprazole (Prevacid) and omeprazole (Prilosec), medication like para-aminosalicylic acid (tuberculosis), neomycin (antibiotic), colchicine (gout), metformin (antidiabetic drug), Questran (cholestyramine, to lower cholesterol), nitrous oxide (sedation).
To name just a few.

Regarding the long list of causes of B12 deficiency it is easy to understand that there are a lot of people out there that may suffer from B12 deficiency, often without even knowing it. (Depression being just one of the many, many different symptoms.)

Originally Posted by DArtagnan View Post
Alchoholism in itself is not a cause either - as there's always a reason you become one. In fact, depression can be the origin of alchoholism and drug use - in which case depression is what's causing further depression.

I'm not saying we shouldn't be treating people with medicine - but that we should focus on the origin above everything else.
No. B12 deficiency has to be treated right away, asap, before more damage, even permanent damage to the nervous system, is done.
Only after treatment (supplementation) has started the focus may shift to the origin of the deficiency. When no cause of the B12 deficiency is found, or when the cause of the deficiency can not be taken away, life long supplementation is needed.

Naturally B12 deficiency is not THE cause of depression. I agree there are many causes.
But B12 deficiency should be ruled out first because of the serious, permanent consequences when left untreated. Besides, we are talking about an easy, cheap treatment here.

Treating a possible result of B12 deficiency - i.e. depression - with anti-depressants, or wasting time by searching for psychological problems, and at the same time ignoring the (presence of a) B12 deficiency (= possible cause) is a terrible mistake to make.

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May 21st, 2013, 17:17
Originally Posted by SpoonFULL View Post
Some of these are not ideas related to purity but the subject of research and do have an effect. Radiowaves lead to harm is an idea? Stick your head in a microwave while on and tell me how you feel!
I am talking about the waves from wireless networks and electromagnetic fields.

The experiment on this were conducted as follows. A room was rigged so it could be both shielded and bombarded. A participant were allowed to sit in this room. First the room was bombarded with waves, but the participant was told they were in a shielded room. In this experiment they were asked how they felt and they said they felt quite well. Then the room was turned off and shielded, meaning that the waves were now reduced to a minimum. But they were now told that the fields were turned on. The participant now complained over nausea, headaches and some even got physical reactions (dermatitis).

These proven that what is called electrical allergy is a psychopathology. But it's not just imagination, the stress reactions needs to be taken seriously.

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May 21st, 2013, 17:20
Originally Posted by Omega View Post
B12 deficiency is a cause of depression, being the origin of the depression.
As I just pointed out, it doesn't have to be the origin.

The origin of the B12 deficiency… Yes, I agree, the deficiency can be due to a lot of things:
certain gene mutations, lack of IF (intrinsic factor), lack of animal products in the diet, eating disorders, pancreatic insufficiency, parasites, Helicobacter pylori, coeliac disease, Crohns disease, gastritis, gastrectomy, transcobalamin II deficiency, long-term use of proton-pump inhibitors (to block stomach acid production) like esomeprazole (Nexium), lansoprazole (Prevacid) and omeprazole (Prilosec), medication like para-aminosalicylic acid (tuberculosis), neomycin (antibiotic), colchicine (gout), metformin (antidiabetic drug), Questran (cholestyramine, to lower cholesterol), nitrous oxide (sedation).
To name just a few.

Regarding the long list of causes of B12 deficiency it is easy to understand that there are a lot of people out there that may suffer from B12 deficiency, often without even knowing it. (Depression being just one of the many, many different symptoms.)
I'm aware of that, but it has nothing to do with what I'm saying.

No. B12 deficiency has to be treated right away, asap, before more damage, even permanent damage to the nervous system, is done.
Only after treatment (supplementation) has started the focus may shift to the origin of the deficiency. When no cause of the B12 deficiency is found, or when the cause of the deficiency can not be taken away, life long supplementation is needed.
Once again, I didn't say it shouldn't be treated. I'm saying, in general, that we need to look at the origin more than we're doing. I don't know why you're obsessed with B12 deficiency - but my point has nothing specifically to do with it.
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May 21st, 2013, 17:22
Originally Posted by SpoonFULL View Post
The 'cause' can be very complex (social history, childhood .. etc.) and takes a long time to treat, and you need the patient in a reasonable mental state to start this kind of treatment. Medicine is therefore critical in the early stages (especially for advanced cases) to help the patient and his carers to start the long term treatment.
Sure, treatment can be appropriate - but I'm having a problem with the emphasis on medicine - especially in America. It's the easy way out - and it just happens to bring a lot of profit to certain companies.
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May 21st, 2013, 17:43
Originally Posted by DArtagnan View Post
Sure, treatment can be appropriate - but I'm having a problem with the emphasis on medicine - especially in America. It's the easy way out - and it just happens to bring a lot of profit to certain companies.
You have said the magic word 'easy' and I would also like to add 'cheap' way out. It is not only in America unfortunately as it is very time and resource expensive to treat the cause of mental problems of each patient, and this is made even worse when there are no carers (relatives or friends) available to support the patient. In many cases the cause is fundamental and its change require changing of social and government practices.
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May 21st, 2013, 17:51
Originally Posted by JemyM View Post
I am talking about the waves from wireless networks and electromagnetic fields.

The experiment on this were conducted as follows. A room was rigged so it could be both shielded and bombarded. A participant were allowed to sit in this room. First the room was bombarded with waves, but the participant was told they were in a shielded room. In this experiment they were asked how they felt and they said they felt quite well. Then the room was turned off and shielded, meaning that the waves were now reduced to a minimum. But they were now told that the fields were turned on. The participant now complained over nausea, headaches and some even got physical reactions (dermatitis).

These proven that what is called electrical allergy is a psychopathology. But it's not just imagination, the stress reactions needs to be taken seriously.
That is an interesting observation, and not suprising as our minds can create many effects that are as real as we/our minds can make (hence psychosis).

You are looking at it from the pshycological point of view, and I am thinking of the actual physical harm that they can cause over prolonged exposures and at high intensities. We are taking about high frequency, high intensity waves or electromagnetic waves that have similar effect to the microwave on water particles but on living (dielectric) tissue. There is real physical harm there as well.
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May 21st, 2013, 18:55
Originally Posted by DArtagnan View Post
As I just pointed out, it doesn't have to be the origin.

I'm aware of that, but it has nothing to do with what I'm saying.

Once again, I didn't say it shouldn't be treated. I'm saying, in general, that we need to look at the origin more than we're doing. I don't know why you're obsessed with B12 deficiency - but my point has nothing specifically to do with it.
Oops, I thought it was. I won't explain how I came to think it was, I'll only bore us.

When dealing with depression I think psychiaters and psychotherapists should not be treating symptoms while the problem continues to spread insidiously, they should address the cause rather than the symptom. Curing people instead of quickly producing easy prescriptions of pills.
We agree.

But, to me, their first focus should be on prescribing a quick bloodtest to determine whether there's a B12 deficiency. They don't do that, they often don't think of it and few, be it doctor or layperson, know about B12 deficiency.
That's the rationale of my first reply in this thread: remember B12 deficiency and ask for a test when being depressed, google and gather information to see whether you have other symptoms as well.

You were "saying in general".
I am sorry if you think I am obsessed, DArtagnan, but who may be reading this thread, besides you? (And others talking about the subject in general?)
If I can help someone, one person who is suffering, towards the right direction, I don't mind being labelled as "obsessed".

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May 21st, 2013, 19:47
Originally Posted by JemyM View Post
Depressions cause mass killings.
Depressions also cause the use of anti-depressant medications.
Connecting anti-depressant medication with mass killings is equivalent of connecting seat-belts with car crashes. It's stupidity of a level that is hard to take in.
I'm sorry JemyM, but this is an incredibly poorly conceived argument. There is no syllogism (logical or not) in your statement. According to what you have said,

A)Depressions cause mass killings.
B) Depressions cause the use of anti-depressants.

Nowhere from those two statements can someone make the logical leap that anti-depressants cause mass killings. The only logical conclusion that can possibly be drawn is

C)Depressions cause mass killings and the use of anti-depressants.

Based on your logic, equating it to seat belts causing car crashes makes absolutely no sense because A+B =/= C)People on anti-depressants cause mass killings, or anything close to that.

The syllogism you are trying to compare it to could look something like this:

A)People responsible for mass killings are depressed.
B)Depressed people are on anti-depressants.
Therefore,
C)People responsible for mass killings are on anti-depressants.

If you were to use that as the basis for your argument (which you did not), then what you are saying is that such a conclusion is illogical for other reasons. In this case, because it makes too many false assumptions (that all people responsible for mass killings are on anti-depressants). Even so, you have provided no example of how you draw the conclusion that this equals seat belts causing car crashes. My assumption would be something along these lines:

A)People wear seat belts.
B)People get in car crashes.
Therefore,
C)Seat belts cause car crashes.

However, this still isn't an accurate comparison because they are illogical for completely different reasons. The above syllogism could be illogical because it makes false assumptions. However, the bottom syllogism is illogical because it is improperly constructed. The only conclusion that can successfully be drawn is that C)People wear seat belts and get in car crashes.

I guess that's where you draw your comparison from; you have two improperly constructed syllogisms that both arrive at illogical conclusions 1. Because depression causes mass killings and people to use anti-depressants, anti-depressants are responsible for mass killings and 2. Because people get in car crashes and wear seat belts, seat belts are responsible for car crashes. Really, what should be compared is that 1. Depressed people are responsible for mass killings and are on anti-depressants, and 2. People wear seat belts and get in car crashes. However, because you drew an illogical conclusion to begin with, the entire argument is incredibly weak. Normally I wouldn't care, if not for the insulting kicker that you finished it off with, "It's stupidity of a level that is hard to take in."
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May 21st, 2013, 19:54
Originally Posted by SpoonFULL View Post
That is an interesting observation, and not suprising as our minds can create many effects that are as real as we/our minds can make (hence psychosis).

You are looking at it from the pshycological point of view, and I am thinking of the actual physical harm that they can cause over prolonged exposures and at high intensities. We are taking about high frequency, high intensity waves or electromagnetic waves that have similar effect to the microwave on water particles but on living (dielectric) tissue. There is real physical harm there as well.
I am talking about the concerns over things that have been tested to be harmless in the current quantities (including radio, electromagnetic fields, mobile phone radiation, wifi networks etc).

Humanity haven't changed for millions of years and there are some human phenomenons that are just recycled generation upon generation. The same concerns were made regarding railway-roads over a hundred years ago, 50 years ago with the introduction of FM-radio and television and regarding computer screens.

Been following the science. Millions have been spent in research with no evidence to show anything beyond psychology.

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May 21st, 2013, 22:19
When you consider the biochemical structure of the brain and how that effects our cognitive and emotional states you can understand the complexity it creates when trying to treat it.

We are all unique, and how our systems process drugs, food, or allergens, is individual. Treatment is based on symptoms, but is always to some extent trail and error. Whether it is psychotherapy or medication, there is no way to measure any aspect of a living brain and say "this one is low on xyz".

But people do need to be sure physical conditions have been ruled out first. Most of that can be done with simple blood tests. B12 levels, blood counts, thryroid functions, electrolytes, are checked as standard practice when treating depression just for that reason.

Those with true depression. (meaning it is more then just a blue day) are handicapped by their own disease. The helplessness, hopelessness, and total lack of energy or motivation makes seeking help one more thing that you don't have the energy to try nor do you think it would do any good anyway.

This forum could not cover all the possible in's and outs of this disease. But it is a disease………one that can be treated for most people…….one that is complex and mandates each person be treated individually.

The only thing that is universal for every person fighting it, is that you seek help, make sure any medical conditions have been ruled out, and don't wait to complain if something is not helping. You are unique and need to find what works for you.

Bart and Corwin should just admit that when it gets down to it, I will have the final say.
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May 21st, 2013, 22:43
Originally Posted by rossrjensen View Post
Nowhere from those two statements can someone make the logical leap that anti-depressants cause mass killings.
This was the point. We do not need to think long and hard to understand that: "Depressed people are responsible for mass killings and are on anti-depressants."

But the posts by mudsling claim precisely: "anti-depressants lead to mass killings".
This is the fallacious logic.

The rest of my post was an attempt to explain the psychological mechanisms behind this logic. The reason these links argue the way they do is because some people are naturally prone to see foreign substances to be a threat. It's easy to see why this instinct have evolutionary value as many poisons and diseases are dangerous to us. But in this day and age this survival mechanism lead to irrational thoughts and behavior. If you add instinct to logic it will now look like this:

A)Foreign substances are dangerous. <- premise injected by instinct
B)People responsible for mass killings were on anti-depressants.
Therefore,
C)The mass killings were caused by anti-depressants.

I have spent some time with this psychology because I find it fascinating. Much of the health-food industry and alternate medicine industry are built on people with this instinct.

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May 21st, 2013, 23:52
Except you assume that other people have arrived at an illogical conclusion, when in reality they have completely different premises than you proposed. And that in no way is relatable to seat belts causing car crashes. You're making huge assumptions about anyone who could possibly see a connection between anti-depressants and violent crimes.
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May 22nd, 2013, 02:36
Originally Posted by mudsling3 View Post
"The news is out. The killer, James Holmes, who dressed up as The Joker and shot up a movie theater full of people in Colorado, had been taking Zoloft, the same dangerous psychotropic drug that the Columbine killer, Eric Harris, had been taking. According to the information released by the judge in the case, Homes had also been taking a drug called Clonazepam. How long do we have to wait until there is a thorough investigation into the dangers these drugs pose to society? It's far easier to blame video games and use the tragedies to target innocent gun owners. Big Pharma and their bought and paid for stooges in government must be stopped," says Andy Sirkis.
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationwo…,6067279.story
Not sure where the Andy Sirkis quote comes from. It's not in the body of the linked article. We seem to be having an epidemic of misperceptions and misunderstandings around here.
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August 6th, 2013, 04:31
As someone who used to take Zoloft i think it does make you "snap" once in a while. I almost killed myself during that time. I am now on a much weaker drug, Aurorix and i have never "snapped" since.
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August 10th, 2013, 15:05
I dont think anti-depressants are an answer and personally have found them as more of hindrance than help. I tried a couple different ones, and it didnt make me violent, it just made me very emotional. I dont think people's emotions are something to be tampered with by a scientist.

Smoke a little mary jane or something, you know

Also, the potential sexual side effects seem like they'd only introduce new problems for a male, so I didnt take it long term. Imagine - youre depressed already, now youre impotent as well? No thanks. Talk about suicidal, that would certainly not help matters.
Last edited by xSamhainx; August 10th, 2013 at 15:32.
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August 11th, 2013, 06:34
Originally Posted by xSamhainx View Post
Smoke a little mary jane or something, you know
OK hippie, it's electro-shock for you! Come over here by this power outlet and bring a coat hanger. Not a plastic one.
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August 12th, 2013, 02:24
Originally Posted by pibbur who View Post
Most things mentioned here are not new, several issues are taken much too far. There is a huuuge step from restlessness and unstable moods to dangerous aggressive behaviour.
Regular MD should not be able to prescribe psych meds at all, that is the main problem. Problem 2 is they prescribe them for bipolar people which is very risky, or just for the hell of it in many cases.

No matter what, antidepressants should not be used indiscriminately, and when used always under close follow-up by a doctor. Too many patients receive these drugs, and too many of them are left to themselves.
Yes and given for the wrong reasons anyhow. Discontinuing them is a serious problem, too.

They have fewer side effects than tricyclics but they are not a wonder drug.
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August 12th, 2013, 16:59
Originally Posted by ManWhoJaped View Post
Regular MD should not be able to prescribe psych meds at all, that is the main problem. Problem 2 is they prescribe them for bipolar people which is very risky, or just for the hell of it in many cases.
In what way is prescribing medicine that alleviate symptoms risky in cases of bipolar disorder?

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August 12th, 2013, 22:20
Originally Posted by peko View Post
In what way is prescribing medicine that alleviate symptoms risky in cases of bipolar disorder?
Because of the MANIC part of manic depressive. Antidepressants of all types can make someone manic, even someone normal if care is not taken. With bipolar it is basically a certainty it will happen at some point but they do it anyway.
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August 13th, 2013, 02:21
Originally Posted by ManWhoJaped View Post
Because of the MANIC part of manic depressive. Antidepressants of all types can make someone manic, even someone normal if care is not taken. With bipolar it is basically a certainty it will happen at some point but they do it anyway.
I think I misunderstood your usage of "psych meds". If you specifically mean anti-depressants I suppose that could be true, none of the bipolar people I know have been prescribed anti-depressants. Though the most common medication for bipolar disorder seem to be an anti-psychotic medication (based on my experience, admittedly a sample size that's to small to be statistically significant) so the "medical family" so to speak doesn't necessarily dictate usage.

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