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Default I love a story with a happy ending.

September 25th, 2013, 07:23
so Hitler was just a lunnie, an exception to the rule? Why not dismiss the psychotic Newtown shooter, the navy yard shooter…in your line of thinking? Instead, clamoring with these demagogues advocate much stricter gun controls on everyone. The current countless anti-gun laws are not reasonable enough, right? What wrong with autonomy? You are afraid someone with a defactive charactor might jump at you without a gov protecting you or some might not be able to take care themselves without a gov playing robinhood? Yet, you would trust a dirt magnet like GOV has the potential to carry out justice, while restrict gun access of general population, the only way to keep gov in check. That's the beauty about natural rights, they are not granted by anyone, nor anyone/a group elected by "majority". The laws/gov are either to protect these rights, or these are not laws/gov at all.

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Last edited by mudsling3; September 25th, 2013 at 07:37.
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September 25th, 2013, 14:26
Originally Posted by Thrasher View Post
What do you mean by "illegal guns"?
You and Mike introduced the concept a few posts back, so you're probably more suited to answer that. I'd assume, given that you manufactured a distinction to try to explain away the high homicide rate in gun control havens, those would be guns that are not allowed by those stringent gun control laws but are possessed and used anyway.

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September 25th, 2013, 18:26
No, you're the best one to explain what you meant by what you wrote. If you don't want to explain yourself, then we can only assume your posting here is meant to incite emotions rather than inform.

Illegalality varies from state to state and even between cities in the same state. Some guns are illegal to buy from retailers yet can be got from gun shows in the same state. The regulations are so inconsistent it makes no sense to perform statistical analysis on "illegal guns".
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September 25th, 2013, 18:51
Let's review, here, Thrasher. The first mention of "illegal" guns in this part of the discussion.
Originally Posted by txa1265 View Post
As for your two cherry-picked examples where gun death is taken without context of population, and illegal and legal gun usage is not distinguished … well, it falls pretty much with the same old sensationalist talking-points crap.
Not mine.
Following my response to that line of thought, we're got another mention that "illegal" guns are pivotal to the statistics.
Originally Posted by Thrasher View Post
The correct plot would be homicides per capita vs guns per capita (illegal plus legal). That would show the relationship between guns and homicides.
Strange, not my quote again.

So, whatever the hell your definition of "illegal" was, being pivotal to the discussion and all, I think I'm good with it. I would assume that we're talking about guns being owned by people that shouldn't have them according to the existing laws of the land—convicted felons and the mentally ill. If that's not your definition of choice, by all means correct it.

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September 25th, 2013, 19:00
The point I was trying to get you to see is that statistics based solely on a poorly defined concept (illegality of guns) is pointless and ultimately a waste of time. This is due to our loopholed morass of inconsistent laws. I wouldn't make the distinction.
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September 25th, 2013, 19:17
It certainly makes it easier to maintain an emotional position if you throw out any data that might contradict it.

That said, I agree with you that such data as we have is fairly fuzzy and it takes some (reasonably logical, but still) assumptions to pull much meaning from them. Problem is that the gun control folks don't even have the fuzzy data on their side. All they've got at the end of the day is an emotional response that "guns = bad" and several tragedies that, while emotionally moving, were committed by people that shouldn't have had guns in the first place under the existing laws of the land. They shouldn't be arguing for gun control, but rather for better enforcement of the laws already on the books.

That comes back to my earlier point—the gun control folks are sinking their own ship with their intentionally and admittedly deceptive campaign.

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September 25th, 2013, 19:38
The existing laws are a fucking joke because of inconsistencies and free rides that are gun shows, not to mention the differences between states and cities, that allows free movement of arms across jurisdictions. This is the case for strong federal regulations. I'm sure the gun lobby (read gun manufacturers and those under their spell) will cry boo hoo.
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September 25th, 2013, 19:56
If the gun control folks had any credibility left, policies like that might have a chance. Nearly everyone will agree that gun show sales is a real loophole in the system that needs fixed. If you think about it, even your evil corporate cabal would probably support a correction there because every time some loon gets a gun he shouldn't have and goes on a spree, their business gets threatened. The publicity from a Newtown is bad for business (I don't mean to be crass, I'm just painting the cynical picture of the board room) in itself and gives another breath of life to the nuts that can't think beyond "guns = bad".

Unfortunately, the reasonable folks on the gun control side of the debate (and there's a few floating around) have been drowned out by the extremists that want nothing beyond the complete elimination of guns, rational thought be damned.

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September 25th, 2013, 20:18
Well we really need to come together as a country and figure out the cause and correction for the huge increase in mass murders taking place today. My own personal opinion, is that it's fueled by people hopelessness (i.e. mental distress), the country's gun and violence culture, and the easy availability of guns. Corrections are needed in all these areas, I think…
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September 25th, 2013, 20:32
I do have some stuff, but typing on the phone is too much of a pain . Will comment later.

— Mike
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September 25th, 2013, 20:53
Originally Posted by Thrasher View Post
Well we really need to come together as a country and figure out the cause and correction for the huge increase in mass murders taking place today. My own personal opinion, is that it's fueled by people hopelessness (i.e. mental distress), the country's gun and violence culture, and the easy availability of guns. Corrections are needed in all these areas, I think…
I'd say you're on the right track, actually. I'd toss in the bad stew of a culture of victimization (it's not my fault I failed) mixed with the death of personal responsibility (it's not my job to fix it). That probably ties into your hopelessness idea.

I'd definitely modify your last one by adding "…to people that shouldn't have them." Casting the broad net just pisses off law-abiding responsible gun owners. The problem isn't with the guy that keeps his pistol in a biometric gun safe, attends a gun safety class, and treats the gun with the respect a deadly weapon deserves. The problem is the punk robbing the 7-11 using a stolen gun with the serial number filed off that leaves it sitting on the kitchen table while his 3-year-old plays nearby. Lumping the two in the same net is not only misguided, it's insulting. It should surprise nobody that such an approach meets huge resistance.

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September 25th, 2013, 21:29
It's the mass murders I am really most concerned about. The isolated acts of crime involving guns had been decreasing, up until the great recession.
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September 26th, 2013, 05:44
Originally Posted by Thrasher View Post
Well we really need to come together as a country and figure out the cause and correction for the huge increase in mass murders taking place today. My own personal opinion, is that it's fueled by people hopelessness (i.e. mental distress), the country's gun and violence culture, and the easy availability of guns. Corrections are needed in all these areas, I think…
Just because you saw the incident about Naval Yard shooting on Channel 2, 4 and 7 at 12pm, 1pm, 3pm news doesn't mean there were 9 different incidents. The sensational reporting across the board plays into the hysteria. Statistics show lots more of murders were committed by bare fists and hammers.

"a mass shooting is a gun crime in which at least four people other than the shooter are killed"

see an analysis here
http://reason.com/blog/2013/09/19/wh…many-mass-shoo

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October 24th, 2013, 13:02
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/nati…icle-1.1494144

This highlights one of the problems of a gun-saturated society - if you have to assume that the other guy is armed, it is understandably only natural to overreact. Can't even blame the police, really.
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October 24th, 2013, 13:04
Guns don't kill people - people with guns kill people
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October 24th, 2013, 14:58
The two deputies who opened fire called for backup when they first spotted Lopez walking around with his friend's toy weapon. Then they repeatedly ordered Lopez to drop the gun, and he failed to comply, according to authorities.
Why bother with the trivial details when there's a ban to get done? Sad, but the kid caused the situation, not guns.

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October 24th, 2013, 15:18
Originally Posted by dteowner View Post
Why bother with the trivial details when there's a ban to get done? Sad, but the kid caused the situation, not guns.
Follow your own advice: "The two deputies who opened fire called for backup when they first spotted Lopez walking around with his friend's toy weapon."

That is, they immediately assumed it's a real weapon. That simply wouldn't happen here.

More detail here:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-24648974
"He was holding the weapon in his left hand. He began to turn toward his right in the direction of the deputy, and in so doing he moved the gun toward the deputy, and the deputy's mindset was that he was fearful he would be shot," Lt Paul Henry of Santa Rosa police said."

That's exaclty the point I was making - "the deputys mindset". Also, I wasn't talking about a ban, nor as I said, blaming the police. The U.S. will not ban guns in our lifetime. I am just pointing out that you'll have to live with shit like this due to the choice you, as a nation, have made in this respect.
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October 24th, 2013, 15:33
I would say the lesson here really has nothing to do with guns. The lesson here is that when the cops tell you to do something, it's wise to comply. Further, if the cops tell you to drop something that even remotely could be a weapon, failure to comply could be mortal stupidity. Nothing to do with guns or gun culture.

This exact same scenario could have occurred if we replaced the toy gun with a toy knife or a toy bow-n-arrow, but that wouldn't be nearly as useful to the campaign, would it.

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October 24th, 2013, 15:36
In other words we have no real rights under this authoritarian militaristic state … Comply or die,

— Mike
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October 24th, 2013, 15:39
Do you really expect the right to point a weapon at a police officer after being ordered not to? Is that really the kind of freedom you want? That's just silly, Mike, and you know it.

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