Dragon Age 2 - Meet the Exiled Prince

kalniel said:

I assume that Bioware either have an excess of talent/time if such DLC doesn't affect the main game negatively, so it's no loss. Or such DLC is actually worked on in the delay between main game completion and the actual game release when the bottleneck is logistics/publishing rather than dev talent.

If it did affect the main game then you just make the usual bang/buck argument before buying it - it could well be Bioware games provide an excess of enjoyment anyway and would still be worth the money with content lessened.

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So what you're assuming is that the game is so perfect, there is absolutely nothing more that can be done to improve it, or that they've made all of this DLC in the time between the completion of the game, and it's actual release.

I'm more than a little skeptical of this.

I'm of two minds.

On the one hand I do believe that this is superfluous content. The way videogame teams are structured it makes perfect sense to have DLC like this done when the main game is done, because the content creation teams move on way before the main game is ready to ship. Calling stuff like this "cut content" is really just reaching for something to be pissy about, if you ask me. If you played Dragon Age or Mass Effect 2 with the DLC you would know it was certainly add-on content that did not feel like part of the main game.

That said I also agree this shit is stupid, for a multitude of reasons. For one thing it APPEARS to be cut content and customer fleecing, which whether true or not is probably a bad thing from a customer service perspective. For another thing I don't think it's fair that customer A pays his $50 and gets more content than customer B who also paid $50. The same money should buy the same content on day one, period.

Anyway... I have the flu, so back to bed with me. Just wanted to chime in real quick on this.

DoctorNarrative said:

I'm of two minds.

On the one hand I do believe that this is superfluous content. The way videogame teams are structured it makes perfect sense to have DLC like this done when the main game is done, because the content creation teams move on way before the main game is ready to ship. Calling stuff like this "cut content" is really just reaching for something to be pissy about, if you ask me. If you played Dragon Age or Mass Effect 2 with the DLC you would know it was certainly add-on content that did not feel like part of the main game.

That said I also agree this shit is stupid, for a multitude of reasons. For one thing it APPEARS to be cut content and customer fleecing, which whether true or not is probably a bad thing from a customer service perspective. For another thing I don't think it's fair that customer A pays his $50 and gets more content than customer B who also paid $50. The same money should buy the same content on day one, period.

Anyway… I have the flu, so back to bed with me. Just wanted to chime in real quick on this.

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What I said - except concise and coherent. Maybe if I had the flu I wouldn't have been so inclined to ramble as I did.

Whine and complain like some jilted high school kids at the Junior Prom. That'll show mean old Bioware!

I see where you all are coming from, but this is not unexpected. If you don't want to buy the game or any add-on parts of the game, then simply refrain from doing so.

In my opinion, Bioware makes games that are fun to play and generally keep me entertained for many, many hours. They come out with a game, what - once a year or so? If it ends up costing 80-90 bucks in the end, so what? This add-on is an additional character with a quest. Sounds good to me. Personally I'm not interested in gear add-ons, or appearance packs or whatever and have not bought those ever in the past and likely will never do so in the future. But I don't take it as a personal offense that such things are available as additional paid content.

As for the reference upthread about my disappointment in paying $25 for Eschalon 2 and willingness to shell out $7 for this: So what? I paid 25 bucks for Eschalon based on some reviews I read and to "support indie developers." I ended up with a game that is boring and not fun to play. I have had issues with Bioware games in the past, notably DA1, which I found got pretty tedious towards the end, and overall I don't have a great impression of. Hell, I liked ME2 much, much better and I don't really even like sci-fi. But I still enjoyed DA1 enough to play through and enjoy the good parts, of which there were many. Eschalon 2 is just plain dull and a waste of $25.

As for the reference upthread about my disappointment in paying $25 for Eschalon 2 and willingness to shell out $7 for this: So what? I paid 25 bucks for Eschalon based on some reviews I read and to "support indie developers." I ended up with a game that is boring and not fun to play. I have had issues with Bioware games in the past, notably DA1, which I found got pretty tedious towards the end, and overall I don't have a great impression of. Hell, I liked ME2 much, much better and I don't really even like sci-fi. But I still enjoyed DA1 enough to play through and enjoy the good parts, of which there were many. Eschalon 2 is just plain dull and a waste of $25.

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You didn't enjoy an indie game, and that's why paying for DLC is a good thing?

Maybe you shouldn't put all indie games into one tiny basket called Eschalon 2?

Sometimes I have to wonder exactly what kind of thought process is needed for such a conclusion.

Ovenall said:

Whine and complain like some jilted high school kids at the Junior Prom. That'll show mean old Bioware!

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Or suck on Bioware's marketing dick like a crackhead without any rock. If you can engage in hyperbole and ad hominem, so can I.

DArtagnan: No, I'm saying it's apples and oranges. You can't compare the two.

The one is a $7 add-on for a game that I'll very likely enjoy, knowing Bioware's other games and having played the demo (which I liked). The other is $25 I spent on a game that is really boring and I can't get into at all. See the difference? What I said was I am "wary" of indie games because I read so much positive stuff about Eschalon 2, and the community here hypes the indie games so much that when I bought the game for $25 I felt like I bought a bad game that I didn't like. I have nothing against indie games, I'm simply wary of them and will be more cautious spending money on them based on my bad experience. Bioware is a company who's games I've played for many years and have sometimes loved, but always enjoyed. This is why I do not say I am wary about buying a Bioware game.

Captain Buzzkill: I don't really care about marketing. I like to play RPGs and Bioware makes good RPGs. Again, they come out with a really fun (or at least passably fun) game around once a year. I am willing to pay a premium for that. If Bioware starts making games I don't like then I will stop buying them, or maybe wait until I can get them at a discount. It's pretty simple.

Edit- Yes, I wish they would simply charge $100 or whatever and put it all in one package. But they are a business that is trying to make money so they can pay their employees and make the CEO's monthly boat payment. So there's marketing gimmicks. I wish it wasn't this way, but we live in a world where people are paid big bucks to come up with these schemes. And if the schemes didn't work, they'd go out of business or try some other schemes. If it was a product I wasn't interested in I wouldn't put money down for it. But it is a product that I will very, very likely enjoy for many hours. So who cares? It's seven bucks.

Ovenall said:

Whine and complain like some jilted high school kids at the Junior Prom. That'll show mean old Bioware!

I see where you all are coming from, but this is not unexpected. If you don't want to buy the game or any add-on parts of the game, then simply refrain from doing so

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There have been quite a few posts explaining the feeling this is cut content that would otherwise be part of the game is probably incorrect. While acknowledging it feels cheap to have content on day one you have to pay extra for - several people and myself have posted that this is not likely content that would have existed otherwise.

Of course the fact that the dev teams are told to create x number of DLC of types a, b, and c to be availible on day one may have lead to some of the quality and thematic issues of some of bioware's past day one DLC. Perhaps the reason Zaeed was free and the Exiled Prince is not was because it was recognized that Zaeed was not quite fleshed out enough to be charged for. If you compare him to Katsumi (whose selection of comments are more fleshed out and respond more to other changes in the party and plot) this seems possible.

Gamers like Ovenall will stand for Nothing , and fall for everything. As for the DLC I dont buy, It is that easy. But it doesnt mean that its ok for them to treat the consumer the way they do. Like war and torture we do it , doesnt make it right . Eschalon Book 2 was a fun game , much better RPG than DA2 will ever be and they gave its fans free DLC that was longer than 3 of Biowares DLC. Yes ! its only my opinion, but that doesnt mean its not valid. So keep giving Bioware your hard earned money , and they will keep giving you inferior games. After all its only 7 bucks. Tomorrow it will be 20 next year , it will 50, etc.

Gamers like Ovenall will stand for Nothing , and fall for everything.

Do you type stuff like this out with a straight face? Do you really think you're taking some kind of meaningful, bold stance here? If you don't like Bioware's games, then don't play them. There's thousands of games on the market that I have no interest in, but I don't go all Drama-Queen about them online.

By not buying games I'm not interested in, I am "standing for something." Having an internet tantrum about how bad a company is because I don't like their games or their sales strategy is simply silly.

Also, they're just games. Please keep that in mind.

DArtagnan said:

So we should actually be celebrating DLC - because the game might be worth playing anyway?

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Non sequitur.

We shouldn't consider how the existence and acceptance of DLC affects the industry, and the expansion mindset?

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Sure - I think I mentioned something about that when talking about how I prefer expansion amounts of content if it's coming after the game is released. Maybe that was somewhere else. I don't think it has to have a negative effect on the industry, or the quality of the original game either.

Captain Buzzkill said:

So what you're assuming is that the game is so perfect, there is absolutely nothing more that can be done to improve it, or that they've made all of this DLC in the time between the completion of the game, and it's actual release.

I'm more than a little skeptical of this.

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Erm, any game can always be improved. That doesn't mean that it makes business sense to spend the resources on doing so, nor that you can't continue to improve the game without also using some talent to make DLC. Only so many cooks can be in the kitchen at once.

i think when this argument has decended into comparisons --"Like war and torture we do it, doesn't make it right"--it becomes clearer that the outrage at dlc is far from rational and instead quite impulsive which is ironic considering dlc is a perfect market for impulse buying.

keeping the focus on the merits and value of the game itself and how its now more for less makes sense. though if its still a quality game then that becomes of less important. orgins was a great game with tons of value and people still bitched about dlc. people seriously need to see that it's not going away, and you're not saving civilian lives or cites by protesting it. some of these arguments are along the same line as those against boxed versus downloadable games which i myself used to feel though have come to accept over the last few years or less. maybe the dlc can be improved, and most likely will be but rampaging against it wholeheartedly is just going to have those making decisions most likely tune you out which i would think is counter to your best interest.

DArtagnan said:

But what I meant was that there's little incentive for the developer to develop "meaty" expansions requiring full teams to develop, and taking at least 6-12 months.

I mean, if the standard expansion is ~30$ - then why not produce three DLC packages and sell them for 10$ each. Especially since people seem so eager to spend money, when the amount is small.

If you prepare for them properly, you can do such content with minimal effort - compared to what you'd have to do with an expansion.

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Well said!

Let's calm down on some of the posts bordering on personal attacks. Gamers are entitled to buy what they please without having to "stand" for something.

Can someone please explain to me how having an opinion about what's good or bad for the industry has to mean we're outraged or that we believe we're saving lives?

I can turn off the water when brushing my teeth - because I know it's better for the environment. It doesn't make me a hero, but I just know it's a beneficial act.

I don't believe people who support DLC are "fanbois" or "evil" - or anything ridiculous like that.

They simply don't think it's harmful to the industry - or they don't care. That's all it is.

Why can't we have a debate without these emotional fantasies all the time - it's annoying, people.

DArtagnan said:

Can someone please explain to me how having an opinion about what's good or bad for the industry has to mean we're outraged or that we believe we're saving lives?

I can turn off the water when brushing my teeth - because I know it's better for the environment. It doesn't make me a hero, but I just know it's a beneficial act.

I don't believe people who support DLC are "fanbois" or "evil" - or anything ridiculous like that.

They simply don't think it's harmful to the industry - or they don't care. That's all it is.

Why can't we have a debate without these emotional fantasies all the time - it's annoying, people.

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+1

It's one thing to disagree with someone's opinions, but it's something else entirely to dismiss that opinion via passive/aggressive behavior.

Captain Buzzkill said:

It's one thing to disagree with someone's opinions, but it's something else entirely to dismiss that opinion via passive/aggressive behavior.

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That's happening on both sides frankly, if not more so on yours.

As someone who sees the merits of both sides of this issue I can tell you it's a lot more annoying to me to read stuff like "well you're just a sucker" than it is to read stuff like "hey I enjoy it, so I'm buying it." The latter sounds like someone having a good time and the former sounds like an elitist jackass.

Ovenall said:

Gamers like Ovenall will stand for Nothing , and fall for everything.

Do you type stuff like this out with a straight face? Do you really think you're taking some kind of meaningful, bold stance here? If you don't like Bioware's games, then don't play them. There's thousands of games on the market that I have no interest in, but I don't go all Drama-Queen about them online.

By not buying games I'm not interested in, I am "standing for something." Having an internet tantrum about how bad a company is because I don't like their games or their sales strategy is simply silly.

Also, they're just games. Please keep that in mind.

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Although this is a fair argument, I think falling into apathy and not caring is not a good way. If we are not satisfied with something, we should let the developers know our oppinion.

Bioware RPGs 2011 A.D.: "Some Assembly Required. This product is provided "as is" provided you assembled it partially or wholly yourself. This product is provided "as we want it" and you will have to pay for any additional spare parts or options."

Car-sales mentality in games. Or fast-food mentality in games. That's all it is, really.
"Can I have ummm.... DA3 please?"
"-Would you like fries with that?"

When:

Whine and complain like some jilted high school kids at the Junior Prom. That'll show mean old Bioware!

Becomes:

"hey I enjoy it, so I'm buying it."

It's an interesting translation.