Is religion an insult to human dignity and threat to freedom of human spirit?

I don't believe in forcing my beliefs on people either; I'll share and defend them, but forcing is a total waste of time. People have to choose for themselves what they believe; a forced belief is no belief.

The Crusades are a 'joke'. I studied them in detail when majoring in mediaeval history many, many years ago and they were the result of greedy, politically motivated men who dressed their aims up in a religious skin to hide their true motives. They were similar to today's televangelists who do the same thing!!

Corwin said:

The Crusades are a 'joke'. I studied them in detail when majoring in mediaeval history many, many years ago and they were the result of greedy, politically motivated men who dressed their aims up in a religious skin to hide their true motives. They were similar to today's televangelists who do the same thing!!

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Agreed, but that raises the question of whether, given the apparent ease with which religion is perverted for personal gain (in a wide range of eras, cultures, and theologies), religion is a threat to freedom of human spirit, yes?

That would be humanity is a threat to the human spirit.

Religion is just an easy option to pervert for personal gain. Others use patriotism in the same way. Does that make it a threat?

Corwin said:

The Crusades are a 'joke'. I studied them in detail when majoring in mediaeval history many, many years ago and they were the result of greedy, politically motivated men who dressed their aims up in a religious skin to hide their true motives. They were similar to today's televangelists who do the same thing!!

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I don't think it was that simple, you know. There was genuine religious fervor there, just like there's genuine religious fervor in those televangelist mega-churches. Whether Richard Coeur-de-Lion or Jimmy Swaggart (or Ayatollah Khomeini or Osama bin Laden, for that matter) actually believe(d) their own spiel is somewhat irrelevant; either way, they're playing with massive forces of religious sentiment.

Corwin said:

Religion is just an easy option to pervert for personal gain. Others use patriotism in the same way. Does that make it a threat?

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Up to a certain point, patriotism is harmless, but past that, it becomes a serious threat indeed, because it blinds people to the realities of their nation's actions towards foreigners. Nationalism was the main reason Hitler had the support of large parts of the population in Germany, for example.

Past a certain level, religion does the same thing, only that nation is sometimes replaced by church and foreigners is replaced by disbeliefers. I think the main point here is: how far are you willing to suspend your own disbelieve in favor of indoctrinated ideals. Religion in particular demands belief without proof or rational explanation, and may for that reason be even more susceptible to abuse than other ideologies.

coyote said:

Yes, she had flaws and committed sins as any other human, but she also helped the very poor and abandoned in Calcutta.

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coyote said:

without her religious inspiration, she probably would not have spend her life trying to alleviate the pain of the terminally sick and dying, to care for orphans and feed the homeless.

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The whole point is that her religious standpoint was part of the Christianity which consider suffering to be a good thing. That line of thought is stronger within catholicism than it is in protestantism, but it is there. That means that alleviating pain is not part of the agenda, instead pain is exploited to promote the cult.

Corwin said:

Religion is just an easy option to pervert for personal gain. Others use patriotism in the same way. Does that make it a threat?

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Any ideology that can quickly take control over huge masses represent a threat. They all have in common that they train people into blindly following authority, treat it's leaders as more than human and consider human lives as less important than the goal. Countries that teach children individualism, to be critical to authority and rely on democracy to get their opinions heard, have less chance to fall to this biological mindtrap. And that's pretty much the story of the 20th century where the majority of the authoritarian ideologies were defeated; dictatorships, christian theocracies, nationalism, national socialism, communism etc.

That's not just me saying it, that's pretty much the result of every social psychology experiment that ever been taken when it comes to what effect authority have on natural human impulses.

In this thread you have said out loud that lying/deceiving your great leader is punished by death, and that is ok. You do not question why lies were made, or if it was even justified to deceive someone who request you to give away all your stuff. You also do not question if DEATH isn't a bit harsh for the "crime" done. You even suggested that a cult who practice death penalty for the disobedient have "free choice of membership". I would say that's religion perverting you, not the other way around!

Nationalism have a positive effect when it comes to making people working together for their country. There have been some great leaders managing to unite people who live in the same geographical area despite different backgrounds and got them all working for their country and wanting their country to be great.

I have seen many nationalists who I consider to be hostile to the nation since they spend a great deal of time focusing on minor aspects of some people while looking down on minor aspects on some other people. That's not uniting, that's dividing, and that's harmful to the community and the nation.

Regarding Ananias and Sapphira, they could easily have been expelled from church to avert any ruin they might have brought, even if that would not have set as strong an example for the future. They clearly had no time to repent, and obviously God does not give grace to them.

If every small sin is worthy of death unless you are given grace, justice turns into a lottery and looses its meaning.

On the topic of Mother Teresa: from what I read, the sick came to her of their own volition because they were suffering, and received basic medical care to alleviate it. She even went as far as reading Muslims from the Quran and giving Hindus water from the Ganges to allow them to die in dignity according to their religion.

If the above is true, this does not fit into your line of argument, Jemy, so I assume you have different information? Or would you also accuse the Red Cross Society of exploiting pain when they ask for donations?

Corwin said:

Religion is just an easy option to pervert for personal gain. Others use patriotism in the same way. Does that make it a threat?

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I guess any position of power is corruptible and therefore power under any guise is a threat. The greater the power the greater the threat and religion is a very powerful force.

coyote said:

Regarding Ananias and Sapphira, they could easily have been expelled from church to avert any ruin they might have brought, even if that would not have set as strong an example for the future. They clearly had no time to repent, and obviously God does not give grace to them.

If every small sin is worthy of death unless you are given grace, justice turns into a lottery and looses its meaning.

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We can never know for sure, as i said only God can see the future. It is still possible for then to try and harm the church from outside the church, i have seen examples of this in today's age as people spread gossip when they are bitter. Ananias and Sapphira may or may not have repented we can never know, but in that time when they don't repent they could cause havoc to the church and this case God couldn't allow that. This case is a specific example of when God has to make a speedy judgment for the greater good. I dont expect people to die instantly these days unless a similar event occurs.

As for every small sin being worthy of death and justice losing its meaning, it is why we repent.

So, I was thinking a bit and although I don't want to harm anybody's feelings I think that the truth must be said in all its nakedness whether we like it or not, no matter how much politically incorrect the truth is:

There's no God, no Devil, no Hell, no angels, no any other supernatural fairytales which exist only to juggle the human mind. No "God" will ever help you. Only you can help yourself and others.

By the way I decided to read the whole Bible (So far I haven't). So I started to read Genesis, but stopped reading it because I couldn't read it any further than a few dozen pages. To build a world in 7 days (or in fact in 6 days) and other absurdities are too much for me. I simply cannot accept explanation like:And God said, "Let there be light"; and there was light.

So, I must face it, I'm an atheist, a complete one and I completely agree with Richard Dawkins that being an atheist is nothing to be apologetic about. On the contrary, it is something we should be proud of it and not be afraid to express. Because when a man is an atheist, he has (or at least is likely to have) a healthy and free, open mind because his mind is not indoctrinated by religious superstitions. As coyote has already pointed out in this thread:

People who grew up in a more fundamentalist environment - and that includes christian creationists, for example - will not even allow themselves to think beyond a certain point, because it goes against beliefs which are intrinsically fixed and not open for discussion.

But if you asked me, I would answer you that I think that a lot of biblical passages is or may be inspired by a contact with extra-terrestrial intelligence in past because I don't think that "God" or any other "Gods" would be anything other than just the image of extraterrestrial inteligence we encoutered in past (here on Earth) or of our experience we cannot explain rationally because when we are unable to explain something (which we don't understand), we tend to explain it preternaturally (and if we can rule the people and their minds and maintain power over with the help of religion, the better). That's why the religions were "invented".

I hope that "Third millenium" will enter the history as a millenium we released ourselves from lives dominated by the supernatural.

Now, I think, I'll be on Damian's potential Antichrist list .. and probably, not his alone . But what. One cannot be afraid of saying the truth...

shadow_hk said:

I think that the truth must be said in all its nakedness whether we like it or not, no matter how much politically incorrect the truth is:
There's no God, no Devil, no Hell, no angels, no any other supernatural fairytales which exist only to juggle the human mind. No "God" will ever help you. Only you can help yourself and others.

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You forgot to add "in my opinion" or better yet "It's my belief" It's a lie for any human to say that they know the TRUTH in this matter. Have you died and risen from the dead to come tell us poor little humans your wisdom of the afterlife or in your case the lack of one? Or perhaps you are a god, which then you would be lying about there being No God or Gods

shadow_hk said:

One cannot be afraid of saying the truth...

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Ahhh there you go again, you forgot "In my opinion" :lol:

skavenhorde said:

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I believe that was one of the most hollow comments in this thread. The practice of combining truth relatitivity with ignorance is a bankrupt position as far as I concern.

I'm aware that I omitted "in my opinion" and I did it intentionally and with full knowledge. And to my credit, I did it for the first time. Why did I do that? Because the word "God" and His existence was pronounced here by believers so many times like an indisputable fact. So, I just turned that.

By the way I have already said here that I cannot prove that something doesn't exist. I can't prove a negative. I can only deduce with the help of my reason, knowledge and experience.

JemyM said:

I believe that was one of the most hollow comments in this thread. The practice of combining truth relatitivity with ignorance is a bankrupt position as far as I concern.

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OK...thanks for your condescending attitude towards an attempt to share some humor with everyone. I'm sorry if I offended your intelligence with my poor attempt at taking a statment and having some fun with it because it sounded really arrogant.

I do believe you have used the word bankrupt with me a few times before. Does it have something to do with my name or you just hate everything I have to say? In any case, thanks a bunch and Merry Christmas to you too.

By the way it's relativity not relatitivity and it's I'm concerned not I concern.
Sorry, but the first grade teacher in me has to correct obvious mistakes

shadow_hk said:

I'm aware that I omitted "in my opinion" and I did it intentionally and with full knowledge. And to my credit, I did it for the first time. Why did I do that? Because the word "God" and His existence was pronounced here by believers so many times like an indisputable fact. So, I just turned that.

By the way I have already said here that I cannot prove that something doesn't exist. I can't prove a negative. I can only deduce with the help of my reason, knowledge and experience.

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Ok, I can understand that. Sorry if I sounded too callous before but it did really sound like you were stating this as fact, but I can understand your frustion with someone expressing a belief as fact.

Hey at least I delayed some comments about the alien as gods part of your comments. I knew a few people would have something to say about that. You could be right or wrong. Isn't this the best part of being a sentient being is that it is your right as a thinking sentient being to try to understand the universe around us. I personaly don't agree with you and can't get into these discussions because I'm sorry but some of the posts here are just flat out silly. I'm not as good a phrasing my words as most everyone else here but from what I've read, I am soooo glad I converted. In essence I'm supposed to just go with the flow, which is contradictory to what I'm doing right now. I should of just read your message and not said a thing, if I was following my core beliefs.

I just couldn't help trying to lighten up such a heavy discussion. Sometimes it works sometimes, well not so much. The intellectuals really hate it when I attempt humor Even at work when I'm talking to someone who thinks they are an intellectual, they will say something that is so hard to understand but is just so damn mean, just because you were trying to make people laugh. They do it on purpose too, not only do they get to insult you but they get to insult you in a higher language, must be a "kill 2 birds with 1 stone" sorta thing.

Anyways, hope you have a great Christmas (you can still celebrate Christmas even though you're not celebrating the birth of Jesus. I do every year because in my home Christmas had nothing to do with Gods birth and had everything to do with family getting together to see each other and have some fun)and I'm glad you found something you can believe in. It took awhile for me but when you do, you start to see the world a little bit differently.

I believe in my mind, in my "ratio" or at least I'm trying to .

And yes, then I believe in extraterrestrial intelligence (for a long time since childhood). But I don't think this is a faith per se. I just consider highly and statistically unlikely that we are alone in the universe. It is a rational Däniken sort of "belief", not some irrational belief in Astar Seran and similar sectarian nonsenses (for your own good, you probably cannot know them, they operate probably only in my country.. http://www.vesmirni-lide.cz/astar.htm - for the sake of all mankind they haven't spreaded yet beyond our boarders (but they travel to universe, oh yes.. ).

Besides even Vatican admits possible existence of "terrestrial brothers" (I must smile to this term.. )) ). (because they must if they want to survive as a (dominant) church...

http://donklephant.com/2008/05/14/vatican-gives-belief-in-aliens-a-thumbs-up/

It shows also how "flexible" the faith is when it is necessary...

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In terms of Christmas, we celebrate it too, it is a habit here, although it is nothing religious in my family. Thanks for your wishes.

Then there's another interesting thought:

Nothing ever truly dies. The universe wastes nothing. Everything is simply transformed.

I don't know who said it for the first time, but this phrase appeared in the movie The Day The Earth Stood Still (I saw it a weak ago). I think there's a true wisdom in these words.

Nothing is gained, nothing is lost, everything is simply transformed.

(but I know, say it to the human on the bring of dying..)