Oldest surviving copy of the gospels

JM, I have forgotten more about English spelling and grammar than you will ever learn. I taught it for over 30 years and one of my degrees is in English Literature. Your attitude and narrow PoV is getting tiresome. I have 2 children who are also university graduates; what do you have except a lot of opinions!!!!

In all fairness, Corwin, but he at least presents his arguments. I don't like Jemys abrasiveness, but he has presented his case, and all you did was to state - you are wrong, I am right, but can't be bothered to argue with you. That really isn't a senible contribution to a debate.
 
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I don't think you need to reveal that English is not your primary language, Jemy, as it's pretty obvious.
 
In all fairness, Corwin, but he at least presents his arguments. I don't like Jemys abrasiveness, but he has presented his case, and all you did was to state - you are wrong, I am right, but can't be bothered to argue with you. That really isn't a senible contribution to a debate.

I'm not sure what the point would be of arguing about this with a fanatical anti-Christian who's also somewhat autistic.
 
what do you have except a lot of opinions!!!!

On the table. That is, I did contribute a couple of facts to the thread already. Three posts of you haven't touched the subject, only a habit of calling yourself knowable while you sum up well known facts as "opinions".
 
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Autism at its best :)
I don't think you need to reveal that English is not your primary language, Jemy, as it's pretty obvious.
I'm not sure what the point would be of arguing about this with a fanatical anti-Christian who's also somewhat autistic.

My ad hominem was a comment on the appeal to authority, pointing out that discussing people are meaningless to the subject. The quality of your "contribution" is noted.
 
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I'm not discussing anything - just commenting. I have no intention of contributing to a worthless discussion - except to remind people how pointless it is to discuss anything with someone who's incapable of sound discussion. Not that I think you wouldn't WANT to be capable, I simply don't think you are.

Maybe then, they can get back to discussing these things with people who're willing to listen and understand other points of view.
 
I don't like Jemys abrasiveness

Sorry about the abrasiveness, but part of being an active debunker is that you reach a point in which you quickly evaluate whether pleasantry or softness have value, if not you just dump the stuff on the table for those present to see, while you smash rhetoric and attempts to squeal out hard, then you leave it up to the public to form their opinion.

Some will see the "rude and angry autistic fanatic", others are just interested in see what each side can present to support their position.

In this case, pleasantry and softness have no value due to the lack of academic courtesy. I have more respect for people with different position than my own, who support that position, than people with the same position than my own, who can't support their position.
 
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except to remind people how pointless it is to discuss anything with someone who's incapable of sound discussion. Not that I think you wouldn't WANT to be capable, I simply don't think you are.

Good reminder. You have definitely presented a strong case for ignoring you for the time being.
 
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Thank you, but that doesn't exactly help the others, though.

The point is that people are investing a LOT of energy discussing things with a person who will never - or can't ever - invest the same in return. You're not listening to what people are saying - you're responding to what you think they're saying - and even through endless repetition or clarification - you don't move a fraction of an inch from your original misunderstanding. That's the autistic part. It takes "social intelligence" or empathy to sense when people should be listened to - or when you should stop in your tracks and pay attention. That's something you just can't do.

That means a lot of time is spent on absolutely nothing. There's nothing to be gained from that, as far as I can see.

The reason I say this, is that I made that mistake with you myself. I spent a lot of time and energy arguing with you about things - only to discover how much of a waste it is. I don't mind never agreeing - but I do mind never being understood. That makes the endeavor fully worthless.

I could be wrong, of course, but I don't think so.

In any case, my point should be sufficiently clear by now.
 
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No.

"Respecting opinion" is nothing more than rhetoric and thought-stopping cliché, commonly used by con-men to cover their insufficient capacity to support their badly supported position. People with such capacity never ask for respect for their opinion since they do not need to (that is, they have a fact-based position instead of "opinion". They can present these facts to show why they have a certain position, then change their position if further facts are presented that invalidate their former position).

If truth is important to you there is no such thing as "respecting opinion", especially not in academic work where "opinion" is to be demolished, hacked and chewed (especially your own). If you do not feel truth is important, then you pay with your credibility and downgrade the value in what you have to say on any subject.

There is also no such thing as "studied more". If you spent anytime on an university you know that there's no such thing as "authority" in knowledge. Each specific narrow subject consists of observations (or evidence) that shall be put on the table, then judged. Different "opinions" (positions) happen when people lack access to evidence. What is done then is to present such evidence. An academic change their "opinion" (positions) accordingly since carrying an "opinion" that deny evidence is dishonorable and asking someone to "respect my position" is pretty much throwing your credibility out of the window.

Because there are different approaches or perspectives in any given field, it's also common courtesy to carry multiple theories on how to combine the presented evidence at the same time. Thus no "straight scoop" exists, there is however "straight evidence". Let's take the "gospels" for example. In this case the artifacts (ancient copies) are the evidence. Then we test the evidence (Carbon-dating, paleography etc) which creates new evidence. Finally we put it all on the table and try to make sense of it all. We cannot exclude evidence because it doesn't fit our "opinion".

You say all this yet you post link to such things as an alternative view of the Hebrew Gods or whatever it is called which makes much less sense in comparison to the common viewpoint simply because of your skewed beliefs. Not saying htat you are wrong, just saying your beliefs fail to make sense to me based on the ark of the covenant rituals in Exodus 25.

I didnt say anything because i could be wrong because I dont have ALL the facts as it is impossible to have all the facts. Because i dont have all the facts there is a chance that i could be wrong. That is the key issue with you. You dont seem to accept the possibility that you could be wrong on the topic at hand.
 
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I'm not sure what the point would be of arguing about this with a fanatical anti-Christian who's also somewhat autistic.

If one thinks there is no point, one shouldn't reply. Taking my own advice, I shall leave P&R to itself again :) I don't think either of us is helping by commenting on the posters instead of the topic...

To contribute at least something to the topic: To my (very limited) knowledge of the subject, this piece of the Gospel of John is generally considered the oldest fragment found until today:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rylands_Library_Papyrus_P52
And here is a list of the known papyrii, with probable dates: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_New_Testament_papyri
To my knowledge, the Qumran scrolls (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_Sea_Scrolls) are still considered the earliest documents of biblical texts that have been found.
All caveats regarding Wikipedia apply.
 
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If one thinks there is no point, one shouldn't reply. Taking my own advice, I shall leave P&R to itself again :) I don't think either of us is helping by commenting on the posters instead of the topic…

If no one comments, then the chance of picking up on such a thing is smaller. Sometimes it's healthy to speak your mind - even if there's no visible short-term gain and only a tiny chance of long-term gain.

But beyond that, you're right.
 
You say all this yet you post link to such things as an alternative view of the Hebrew Gods or whatever it is called which makes much less sense in comparison to the common viewpoint simply because of your skewed beliefs.

Any course on Christian history will mention Ebionites, Marcionism and Gnosticism, explain their texts, their scripture, their perspectives and philosophy. You can't read anything from the early Church Fathers or 19th century discoveries (like the Nag-Hammadi library) without stumbling on these groups. If you call that "opinion" you have taken a very distant position than the academic community around biblical history.

Now, calling these movements "wrong" is something else. However, it is a common rule to not take the leading party's position when dealing with ancients and that is what one would do if one held everything the Church of Rome wrote about these alternative groups to be self-evident. The only justifiable position to take, is that there were a disagreement and it's solution was at least partially political.

Not saying htat you are wrong, just saying your beliefs fail to make sense to me based on the ark of the covenant rituals in Exodus 25.

I dunno what Exodus 25 have to do with the history of the gospels or the new testament really. Several early Christian groups rejected the Hebrew religion. Some groups saw the Hebrew God and the Creator God as evil like the Neo-Platonists and their Demiurge.

There are several vital differences between the New Testament and the Old Testament theologically, such as the behavior of God, beliefs about the afterlife and the spiritual realm etc that played a strong role in the early debate. These politics also play a vital part in the birth of anti-Judaism, which traces still can be found even in modern bibles.

Corwin spoke about Hermeneutics. Knowing real history is important to understand some of the reasoning within the Bible, including understanding the distinction between the Hebrew Religion and the Greek Philosophy and platonic ideas in the Epistles of Paul. What those who claim "The Bible is coherent and consistent" won't accept is that the books of the Bible have history in different groups, different cultures and different political agendas.

I didnt say anything because i could be wrong because I dont have ALL the facts as it is impossible to have all the facts. Because i dont have all the facts there is a chance that i could be wrong. That is the key issue with you. You dont seem to accept the possibility that you could be wrong on the topic at hand.

To the contrary. I am the one who argued against the position that someone can hold the truth and present the "straight scoop" from the first post I made in this thread. I also pointed out the value of having both the "valid" and "invalid" theory in your head at the same time and right from the start take the position "wrong" and "right" then work from there. No historical sources have a 100% right position ever, although there are 100% wrong sources like the Hitler Diaries and The Protocols of the Elders of Zion. You thus can hold the "truth" that something is "false". We know these sources are fakes, it's true.

I have pointed out the positive habit of changing ones position when more facts are added (and always assume that more facts can be added at any time) and when facts are discarded thanks to new facts proving old facts invalid.

So adapting to new evidence is a very honorable position to me. Rejecting evidence however is inexcusable.
 
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To my (very limited) knowledge of the subject, this piece of the Gospel of John is generally considered the oldest fragment found until today:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rylands_Library_Papyrus_P52

This is as far as I know true. P52 is a real artifact. It is not a complete gospel, rather it's the middle of a piece of paper with fragments of text on both sides. The text is partially consistent to what an ancient copy of the gospel would look like considering the potential size of the page and the amount of room available for letters.

You can see the discussion about dating and paleography on the wiki-link.
 
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I dunno what Exodus 25 have to do with the history of the gospels or the new testament really. Several early Christian groups rejected the Hebrew religion. Some groups saw the Hebrew God and the Creator God as evil like the Neo-Platonists and their Demiurge.

There are several vital differences between the New Testament and the Old Testament theologically, such as the behavior of God, beliefs about the afterlife and the spiritual realm etc that played a strong role in the early debate. These politics also play a vital part in the birth of anti-Judaism, which traces still can be found even in modern bibles.

I was using that as an example where i respected your opinion where you thought the Jews had 7 or 8 different gods though i found inconsistent to what was written in the old testament.



Corwin spoke about Hermeneutics. Knowing real history is important to understand some of the reasoning within the Bible, including understanding the distinction between the Hebrew Religion and the Greek Philosophy and platonic ideas in the Epistles of Paul. What those who claim "The Bible is coherent and consistent" won't accept is that the books of the Bible have history in different groups, different cultures and different political agendas.

The new testament is fairly consistent with itself. It is reconiling the new and the old that is the issue.



To the contrary. I am the one who argued against the position that someone can hold the truth and present the "straight scoop" from the first post I made in this thread. I also pointed out the value of having both the "valid" and "invalid" theory in your head at the same time and right from the start take the position "wrong" and "right" then work from there. No historical sources have a 100% right position ever, although there are 100% wrong sources like the Hitler Diaries and The Protocols of the Elders of Zion. You thus can hold the "truth" that something is "false". We know these sources are fakes, it's true.

I have pointed out the positive habit of changing ones position when more facts are added (and always assume that more facts can be added at any time) and when facts are discarded thanks to new facts proving old facts invalid.

So adapting to new evidence is a very honorable position to me. Rejecting evidence however is inexcusable.

That is a good stance then.
 
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I was using that as an example where i respected your opinion where you thought the Jews had 7 or 8 different gods though i found inconsistent to what was written in the old testament.

Are you referring to an old debate?

I might in the past referred to the pantheon in the area where Judaism has it's origin. There were like most polytheistic cultures at the time several gods in the region, many who were later reinterpreted as one, as archangels or even humans. Elohim, YHWH, Bhaal, Ashera etc.

I might also referred to the different perspectives on Gods and the nature of Christ among early Christianities.

The new testament is fairly consistent with itself. It is reconiling the new and the old that is the issue.

The blatantly obvious contradictions are the different agenda between Jesus ("world is about to end") and Paul ("Jesus the savior"), the differences between the stories about Jesus youth and Jesus resurrection. I personally hold these to be self-evident and know bible scholars who gets their students to compare them as their first task.

(Btw, I like this image. It's pretty large though)

That is a good stance then.

Thanks.
 
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The new testament is fairly consistent with itself. It is reconiling the new and the old that is the issue.
Somewhat related to debates on evidence in science. Does it really matter for Christians how old the bible is, or even that it's accurate?

In all fairness, Corwin, but he at least presents his arguments. I don't like Jemys abrasiveness, but he has presented his case, and all you did was to state - you are wrong, I am right, but can't be bothered to argue with you. That really isn't a senible contribution to a debate.
It was JemyM who threw the bait. Although Herr Corwin does sometimes likes to veto with he being a dad and a scholar. ;)
 
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Are you referring to an old debate?

I might in the past referred to the pantheon in the area where Judaism has it's origin. There were like most polytheistic cultures at the time several gods in the region, many who were later reinterpreted as one, as archangels or even humans. Elohim, YHWH, Bhaal, Ashera etc.

I might also referred to the different perspectives on Gods and the nature of Christ among early Christianities.

But the ritual of the ark of the covenant shows that they didnt believe in a human/angel type god they believed he was light. The fact that they had this throughout most of the old testament impliest they didnt change gods like your youtube link mentioned.



The blatantly obvious contradictions are the different agenda between Jesus ("world is about to end") and Paul ("Jesus the savior"), the differences between the stories about Jesus youth and Jesus resurrection. I personally hold these to be self-evident and know bible scholars who gets their students to compare them as their first task.

(Btw, I like this image. It's pretty large though)



Thanks.

Huh? When did Jesus say the world is about to end? He says things like "Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom" but that has nothing to do with the end of the world.
 
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If you look for an apologetic yes.

Rejecting evidence however is inexcusable.
Well then, good thing you'd never reject a source out of hand, since that would be, what was your word, inexcusable. Oh. Ummm, well that's a little awkward.
 
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