Change in moderator policies

zahratustra said:

On the one level you are right Ripper but the solution is very simple: don't reply to "one-note right-wing clickbait topics". In fact, I wonder why so many here are ready to post in those threads time and time and time again. It's pure trolling and yet so many swallow the bait over and over again!

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I'm sure you're right, but that leads back to the problem that their sheer volume has extinguished almost everything else in the P&R, such that interesting contributors don't even look in, and it's just abandoned as a dumping ground.

I think we need another section called "Ranting corner for old farts" and it should have the current relaxed rules P&R section has… it can be the dumping ground and maybe P&R can have more civilized debates.

What I am trying to get at is that we *need* a dumping ground so there is place for people to vent, rant etc otherwise all the built up anger will spill into other sections of the forums. You have to admit that other than P&R section, this forum is very civilized. Even HHR behaves pretty well outside of P&R section…

That's an interesting idea. Lots of forums have a section called "The Black Hole" or "The Wasteland", or something like that, where the terrible nonsense goes. It might work quite well to have more of a free-for all in there for those that want it, and a better, stricter debate forum for people that actually want to have sensible conversations.

I look, but don't touch (mostly).

Not because of the subjects, but because of how I now spend my free time.

No time to discuss with people I don't know about subjects that are not relevant to me.

I will pop my head once in a while though

The forums are here to discuss games. Particularly CRPGs. We have an off-topic forum to discuss some other stuff and we have a P&R forum because if we let discussions about politics and religion into off-topic, things get out of hand.
We don't need another forum where we dump the threads that most of us don't really want. We should prevent these threads to exist in the first place.
A debate is good. We should encourage that. Insults are not, we should discourage that.

Myrthos said:

The forums are here to discuss games. Particularly CRPGs. We have an off-topic forum to discuss some other stuff and we have a P&R forum because if we let discussions about politics and religion into off-topic, things get out of hand.
We don't need another forum where we dump the threads that most of us don't really want. We should prevent these threads to exist in the first place.
A debate is good. We should encourage that. Insults are not, we should discourage that.

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You are going to have big problem there since people have different "insult" thresholds. Lot of people find what what HHR says "insulting" but I don't even though he says bad stuff about the group I belong to… Also I find that people these days are easily offended and equate that with insult etc. We have lot of "crybabies" in this forum and they will be easily insulted and offended… Some of them will be offend and insulted reading the previous line since I used the term "cry babies" :lol:

Perhaps the forum should be thought of as a series of debates - members could suggest topics, and frame an interesting question, and the moderators can accept them and open a new thread for each new debate. Rather like how people suggest ideas for a new site poll.

Then, the ones which are obvious trolling or just subtle variations on the last topic can be rejected. That's pretty much how it's done for real life debates.

Ripper said:

Perhaps the forum should be thought of as a series of debates - members could suggest topics, and frame an interesting question, and the moderators can accept them and open a new thread for each new debate. Rather like how people suggest ideas for a new site poll.

Then, the ones which are obvious trolling or just subtle variations on the last topic can be rejected. That's pretty much how it's done for real life debates.

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Thing I don't understand is, when someone post a topic with obvious troll bait, why do people respond to it? Why do they feed the troll? Why can't they just ignore it and move on?

lostforever said:

Thing I don't understand is, when someone post a topic with obvious troll bait, why do people respond to it? Why do they feed the troll? Why can't they just ignore it and move on?

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All else being equal, I think that would be fair enough. The problem, which I think is becoming more apparent, is the sheer volume and dominance of that stuff. The P&R has become like a broken little subculture, where the sensible people have moved out, and almost nothing but troll bait remains. Some of us pop in for a bit of troll-bashing, even though we know we shouldn't, but that isn't usually very edifying either.

I just think something needs to be done to reboot the P&R in some way.

Ripper said:

I just think something needs to be done to reboot the P&R in some way.

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I agree, it will be nice to have interesting debates to follow but I think the nature of the beast is such that, I don't think any thing that can be done from outside moderation will help. Only self moderation will allow for interesting debates.

I don't consider you or dteowner as trolls but sometime the debate you guys have about subjects close to your heart tend to decent into name calling as well!

As far as insults go, there is a legal aspect as well. When I look at the laws of the country this forum has to oblige to, it states that discrimination, slander, defamation and insults are not allowed. Insults are always to groups or individuals. Never to institutions. So you cannot insult a religion by what you say, but you can insult a religious person or group for example.
'Christianity is an evil religion' is, by law, not an insult, but 'all Catholics are pedophiles' is, whereas 'some Catholics are pedophiles' is not, as the latter can be factual proven and the previous cannot.

Besides the law there is also this thing about what RPGWatch should be. I don't think it is a good idea anymore to allow any sort of discussion to take place, just for the sake of the debate. The P&R forum in its current state is a good reason why many people don't even participate and some have left RPGWatch. We even had to make it invisible to non-registered persons, just because of the titles that were used.

Like I said, the primary goal of these forums is to discuss about games, not about most of the topics that are listed now in P&R. If it drives people away it is not worth having these topics. There are plenty of places outside of RPGWatch to have these debates.

The keyword in all of this is 'respect'.

lostforever said:

I agree, it will be nice to have interesting debates to follow but I think the nature of the beast is such that, I don't think any thing that can be done from outside moderation will help. Only self moderation will allow for interesting debates.

I don't consider you or dteowner as trolls but sometime the debate you guys have about subjects close to your heart tend to decent into name calling as well!

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I wouldn't deny it, and I certainly have a few choice words for certain people, now and again. What I'm saying, though, is that if the debate were more strictly moderated, and less relentlessly unpleasant trash was dumped here, I'd be very happy to give up scrapping, and play within those rules and standards. The current problem is, if you know your opponent is going to get away with anything, it doesn't always pay to play the gentleman! In the cases where I've torn a strip off someone because of the way they're treating people, I would happily press the "report" button instead, if I thought it would do any good.

As I said before, I'd be delighted to see that change, because most of the people I clash with would struggle in that environment.

Well, I guess maybe we should make a separate thread for this discussion instead of discussing in a thread with a title like this ?

Myrthos said:

Besides the law there is also this thing about what RPGWatch should be. I don't think it is a good idea anymore to allow any sort of discussion to take place, just for the sake of the debate. The P&R forum in its current state is a good reason why many people don't even participate and some have left RPGWatch. We even had to make it invisible to non-registered persons, just because of the titles that were used.

Like I said, the primary goal of these forums is to discuss about games, not about most of the topics that are listed now in P&R. If it drives people away it is not worth having them. There are plenty of places outside of RPGWatch to have these debates.

The keyword in all of this is 'respect'.

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You might be right, Myrthos - if it can't be improved, it's probably a net negative in its current state.

Moved the discussion about a change to the moderator policies from a thread in the P&R forum to this new thread.

Its fine as it is and don't change it!

As lost pointed out and as we've rather recently experienced, different people have different thresholds for insulting/offensive. We've got people that look for excuses to be hurt and we've got people so think-skinned that nothing gets thru. Regardless of where you put the line (which will be subjectively fuzzy regardless), half your audience will be unhappy.

Ripper wants to turn it into Oxford rules debate class because his background will give him an edge and working in the echo chamber here means he'll have won before he even gets started 99% of the time regardless of if he rolls out fundamental fallacies or not.

If I'm upsetting people so much, I'll be happy to bail out of P&R and let the echoes rule. The success of the site is far more important to me than any other considerations.

GothicGothicness said:

By not allowing people who have those opinions to express them, we might also limit the possibility to widen their minds and learn about why people feel the way they do.

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I don't see why this site should be a place for people who seem to be unwilling to debate - who just seem to use this place as a blog. Imo in order to be able to widen your mind there has to be a certain willingness/openness to reflect on what others are saying.
All some seem to care about is getting their noise out - seemingly unmoved by anything they usually continue their song, when occasionally noticing a different tune they just seem to turn up their volume.

GothicGothicness said:

If a person is willing to have a discussion, perhaps with a few not too serious insults, and if they have a very "primitve" world view, I think that is not a problem.

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Not too serious insults - what's a not too serious insult? Like lostforever said: this is very subjective, but that does not mean that because it is subjective all is allowed.
I think it's best just to mention "insults" in the TOS - let the site owner and moderators decide what is acceptable in a given situation and what not. In cases they do not step in the person that felt insulted will probably contact them and start an argument why that's unacceptable, after which the moderators or site owner may change their decision.

If you ask me: insulting someone just shows how weak you feel - compensating a lack of arguments by trying to inflate yourself - and a first sign of having lost the debate. Apart from that insults will NOT win the other over to your side, on the contrary. So as to effectiveness: zero.
Starting a thread with insults might people provoke to react - for the wrong reason.
Big chance the debate will go off-topic: attention to the insults instead of the point that was attempted to bring forward. For is there any reason why others should tolerate being insulted and not start insulting in return? Apart from self esteem or self constraint? I feel like losing when lowering myself to the mud someone is trying to drag me into. But yes, we all have our weak spots that can crack our decency.
Imo abusers can be held accountable for hindering a debate and creating a toxic atmoshpere - perfect rule for a TOS.

When it comes to topics I agree with Myrthos: I don't think carte blanche is a good idea. How to best rape women, the easiest way to kill blacks, etc… Plenty of other channels, the Codex(?), 4chan, etc. The European Convention of Human Rights (ECHR) would indeed be a nice start for this site, considering it's subject to European law.
BTW I think many, many topics can be discussed - without any mod intervention at any time - but yes, time may be needed to think about how your message is served, what words to be used. Not bluntly speaking your mind might be hard for some.

lostforever said:

What I am trying to get at is that we *need* a dumping ground so there is place for people to vent, rant etc otherwise all the built up anger will spill into other sections of the forums.

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To vent the built-up anger. Reading this I instantly thought of a "name-calling forum". Everybody will be reading it just to see if you're mentioned or not.

If you ask me: rant all you like, but not at the expense of others. Why would one do that? What's the gain? To stop people turning off their computer and get on with their life? Right.
If you ask me: all you can do on the internet when playing foul, and playing the man instead of the ball, is make yourself look like a loser at best.

lostforever said:

Thing I don't understand is, when someone post a topic with obvious troll bait, why do people respond to it? Why do they feed the troll? Why can't they just ignore it and move on?

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Ignoring won't help, I don't think we are talking about trolls here, about attention seekers. At least that's my impression.

I have specific views on life and world, to say odd at least so I avoid P&R section. Not sure if I'll insult someone with my "attack on usual values" stuff so better to keep it for places where I know the audience enough that for example I can skip the debate about number of kids with someone who has 10-12 of them.

But those who do enter there should know that without thick skin they should keep out. The subtitle there perhaps should read: Enter at your own risk.

What we have on RPGwatch, not in P&R but generally, is something not easy to find elsewhere - diversity.
I hope the upcoming change won't affect that.

dteowner said:

As lost pointed out and as we've rather recently experienced, different people have different thresholds for insulting/offensive. We've got people that look for excuses to be hurt and we've got people so think-skinned that nothing gets thru. Regardless of where you put the line (which will be subjectively fuzzy regardless), half your audience will be unhappy.

Ripper wants to turn it into Oxford rules debate class because his background will give him an edge and working in the echo chamber here means he'll have won before he even gets started 99% of the time regardless of if he rolls out fundamental fallacies or not.

If I'm upsetting people so much, I'll be happy to bail out of P&R and let the echoes rule. The success of the site is far more important to me than any other considerations.

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I don't think this is really about you or me. It's many others that are clearly not happy with the status quo. I don't really care if it's Oxford style or bare knuckles, but I do know that a lot of people are turned off by that level of exchange. I'm just saying, I've been no angel in terms of scrapping, but it suits me fine if we do more civilised debates, and I think more people would be keen to participate. I'm not really feeling the need for an unfair advantage against the reactionary arguments in P&R.