Witcher 3 - CD Projekt tackles downgrade issue

JDR13 · May 26, 2015

Ironic how you were just telling joxer that he needs to grow up.

I used to think you were one of the better posters on these boards. Now it's just sad how petty and bitter you seem to be lately.

vurt · May 26, 2015

JDR13 said:
Ironic how you were just telling joxer that he needs to grow up.

I used to think you were one of the better posters on these boards. Now it's just sad how petty and bitter you seem to be lately.

Says the person who keeps coming back to a thread that he says is of no interest to him, only to make a bitter comment that is of no use to the disccussion, or to say the the discussion has to stop.

Like i said a few weeks ago, this forum is starting to be a lot like RPG Codex.. a bunch of haters who can't take it when someone goes against the general consensus on the forum about a certain game or a developer, usually without any arguments. Bleh. I've had it, keep your sad fanboy attitudes, i have no interest in arguing with children or grown ups acting like little children.

joxer · May 26, 2015

Abandon any hope I'll change or something.
I've stated that what I wrote up there is just my opinion.

Instead of explaining why it might be wrong, you're calling a person who got totally disappointed with season pass thing and expressed it publically on this very forum - a fanboy, a worshipper or dunno, translated to street language perhaps: an idiot?

Try to understand this, please. Your passionate chasing the statements from one CDprojekt guy and calling for a lynch mob all over the place, after I played the game for a few days I find completely irrational.

You may say I'm doing the same thing when I bring up Skyrim bugs every now and then, but sorry, at least I'm not calling others who say Skyrim is a bugfree game as fanboys, worshippers or idiots. They just refuse to see the problem thanks to the modding community who made an unnoficial patch and covered up for Bethesda's mess. And then we'll see bug-o-ramas again because you and likes of you didn't want to put a word on it when it mattered.

Also, where were you with all this about downgrading when the community "called for justice" in Ubisoft case? Nowhere.
What did you expect? That noone else will do the same thing, that it'll be just Ubisoft thing? Noone else will make trailers and actual game looking different except evil Ubi? Riiiight.
IMO whatever problem you have here, you should blame it on your nonactivity when it actually mattered for the future. Now, it just doesn't.
You hate the game, you hate CDprojekt… Just don't buy their future games. It's simple as that. I do it with DLC and pay2win stuff all the time. Hate it. Not buying.

Brumbek · May 26, 2015

vurt said:
It's not about what to call it, downgrade, optimization.. After the release CDPR have admitted they changed the graphics and that there was disappointment even among those who works there.

As you say, CDPR finally admitted they "changed" the graphics in order to make it function on the consoles. To those who don't think it was a downgrade, do you think they improved or lowered the graphics in order to make it work on the consoles? When you remove graphical features that is called a downgrade.

vurt said:
But let's skip that, let me just ask you one simple question that i'd really like to know; exactly what are you defending here? What good comes out of defending a developer that lies again and again? Do you think their next game will be better if they get away with all this bullshit? I'm curious.

I've been asking this exact same question for weeks now. Nobody will answer it. It has to do with human psychology I suppose. No one wants to think they bought a product from people who tricked them or downgraded the product. So people convince themselves it is good enough. Or perhaps many like joxer honestly don't care or notice graphics that much, which is totally fine for them.

Anyway, vurt and I will continue pushing back when developers use false marketing. What makes me most upset is CDPR's idiotic talk about how "trailers are meant to look great but aren't the game". Cinematic trailers naturally are pre-rendered and fine to build hype. But trailers that say IN-GAME FOOTAGE are clearly meant to show users what THE GAME WILL LOOK LIKE.

Why gamers defend false marketing…it is a mystery. CDPR aren't saints. By several accounts they might be the opposite. But I'm still going to LOVE the game (once nVidia fixes the performance on 600 series cards).

ChienAboyeur · May 26, 2015

vurt said:
When it was finally out in the open that it didn't they blamed it on their fans, said that they were comparing an unfinished product to the final game (when it was them who started this).

They could not start it, when they did stuff, the final version was not out, only unfinished products.
Fans, on the contrary, who compared the final version to the unfinished product, started it.
Once again, the fans got what they wanted: material to fancy over.

But let's skip that, let me just ask you one simple question that i'd really like to know; exactly what are you defending here? What good comes out of defending a developer that lies again and again? Do you think their next game will be better if they get away with all this bullshit? I'm curious.

The question is : what is attacked? CDR Projekt has done what multiple others have done and what multiple others got away with.

How will that influence the quality of their product? Despite all that stuff, they released a product satisfying enough to meet the demand of people interested in that type of product. As the other review made it, players interested in story, immersion, so called RPGers actually, will find a quality product. The others may move away, not for them.
The thing is that, from the start, they never hide they wanted to make that kind of products so...

In the meantime, firms like crowdfunded studios failed to release satisfying products relatively to their own ambitions.

They even lie more than CDR (yet are protected on this site) an eventually, they do not release satisfying products.

CDR projekt: in the end, satisfying product despite empty promises.
Crowdfunded projects: in the end, unsatisfying product despite even emptier promises.

A game is graphics, audio, scripts, A.I and many other elements that together forms a game and the experience itself.

What forms the experience in a game is the gameplay first. The quoted elements only serve the ambition of the gameplay.

It's like saying that the way a movie is filmed doesn't matter to the movie or how it is experienced, or that it wouldn't matter which instruments or singer was used for certain song, as long as the melody was the same.

Weird way to put it. In the present case, it is all about focusing on which instrument that is played, while there is no melody, focusing on the way a movie is filmed while there is no story etc

Brumbek said:
As you say, CDPR finally admitted they "changed" the graphics in order to make it function on the consoles. To those who don't think it was a downgrade, do you think they improved or lowered the graphics in order to make it work on the consoles? When you remove graphical features that is called a downgrade.

When you remove graphical features to enable the game to be made, that is an upgrade.
It is all subjective.

I've been asking this exact same question for weeks now. Nobody will answer it. It has to do with human psychology I suppose. No one wants to think they bought a product from people who tricked them or downgraded the product. So people convince themselves it is good enough. Or perhaps many like joxer honestly don't care or notice graphics that much, which is totally fine for them.

There is nothing to be convinced in the case of TW3, during the preshow period, players got what they wanted: material to fancy over.
For the show, players get what they want: a product for so called RPGers.
CDR Projekt's delivered.

Anyway, vurt and I will continue pushing back when developers use false marketing. What makes me most upset is CDPR's idiotic talk about how "trailers are meant to look great but aren't the game". Cinematic trailers naturally are pre-rendered and fine to build hype. But trailers that say IN-GAME FOOTAGE are clearly meant to show users what THE GAME WILL LOOK LIKE.
The whole crowdfunded scene is based on similar stuff, only pushed to a new extremum. Cant remember much effort to push back when crowdfunded projects are hyped on this site.

Why gamers defend false marketing…it is a mystery. CDPR aren't saints. By several accounts they might be the opposite. But I'm still going to LOVE the game (once nVidia fixes the performance on 600 series cards).

Click to expand...

The question is why CDR project gets attacked? With all the crowdfunding going on, it is not about the lack of opportunity...

zahratustra · May 26, 2015

Brumbek said:
As you say, CDPR finally admitted they "changed" the graphics in order to make it function on the consoles. To those who don't think it was a downgrade, do you think they improved or lowered the graphics in order to make it work on the consoles? When you remove graphical features that is called a downgrade.

I (and almost everybody here) know that it's a downgrade. I (and others) have stated it here over and over and over again. Now what? Should I also write in with spray paint on CDPR HQ?

Brumbek said:
I've been asking this exact same question for weeks now. Nobody will answer it. It has to do with human psychology I suppose. No one wants to think they bought a product from people who tricked them or downgraded the product. So people convince themselves it is good enough. Or perhaps many like joxer honestly don't care or notice graphics that much, which is totally fine for them.

Bollocks. It was answered many times over but lets do it again: because the final product (the downgraded one) is still not only good enough but it's GREAT.
You two can froth at the mouth as long as you want but it doesn't change the fact that TW3 is the best RPG that I have played in a long time. And that's no self delusion it's a fact!
So yes, I DO remember that CDPR slipped up but, in the end, they have delivered what they have promised.
Besides, if we followed your logic there would have been quite a few games that we shouldn't be buying. Including Skyrim. Haven't heard you two shouting your protests from the barricades. In fact, you two are happily modding for this downgraded game. Hypocrisy or what?

Brumbek said:
Why gamers defend false marketing…it is a mystery. CDPR aren't saints.

Who is frigging defending false marketing? You are accusing people of cognitive dissonance while you are building straw man the size of Empire State Building?

Brumbek · May 27, 2015

ChienAboyeur said:
The question is : what is attacked? CDR Projekt has done what multiple others have done and what multiple others got away with.

This right here is the most common defense I've seen. "Others do bad things, too." That isn't a defense. The fact that others use false advertising isn't a defense. Everyone who uses false advertising should be called out for it.

zahratustra said:
I (and almost everybody here) know that it's a downgrade. I (and others) have stated it here over and over and over again. Now what? Should I also write in with spray paint on CDPR HQ?

Respect to you for calling it a downgrade. I would beg to differ that almost everyone here agrees. Many have been refusing to call it a downgrade. And putting aside RPGWatch, so many others refuse to call it a downgrade. So I'm not directing my comments at you…no need to take them personally if you don't fit the mold.

zahratustra said:
You two can froth at the mouth as long as you want but it doesn't change the fact that TW3 is the best RPG that I have played in a long time. And that's no self delusion it's a fact!

Sigh…here we go again. Do you remember when I put in bold I LOVE THE GAME? I have to shout it now because you aren't listening. I said the game is great, awesome even. So there's no reason to defend the game, itself. We agree it is great.

zahratustra said:
Besides, if we followed your logic there would have been quite a few games that we shouldn't be buying. Including Skyrim. Haven't heard you two shouting your protests from the barricades. In fact, you two are happily modding for this downgraded game. Hypocrisy or what?

Firstly, I already said I wasn't part of some insane boycott group because Witcher 3 is a great game, downgrade or not. You seem to have misread my posts.

If you think we give Bethesda any slack, then you haven't been paying attention. I made SMIM because I realized how massively Bethesda "dropped the ball" visually.

But the larger point is Skyrim didn't have any meaningful graphical downgrade at all. Bethesda never released insanely amazing footage and then gimped it. Their Feb 2011 trailer showed in-game footage that was true to the final release.

Moreover, Skyrim's first trailer, the VGA 2010 trailer wisely was only a teaser. Bethesda clearly decided the game wasn't ready to show to the public. Respect to Bethesda, and shame on CDPR for showing their 2013 VGX trailer that mislead the public.

Also, no offense to you personally, but do you think you know more about Skyrim's graphics than me, the author of a huge graphics mod that modifies thousands of art assets? I hate to appeal to expert knowledge, but I know Skyrim and I know what Bethesda showed us graphically before release. If Bethesda downgraded Skyrim, they did it in private like a responsible developer.

So you pretty much are completely and utterly misguided to bring up Skyrim as an example. No offense, zahratustra. I'm glad you admit to the Witcher 3 downgrade. That's the first step to getting CDPR and others to change their marketing.

joxer · May 27, 2015

Brumbek said:
Or perhaps many like joxer

There is no "many like joxer". If there were many, I'd quit internet.

I believe I already posted this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xx8kQ4s5hCY
I expected that and I got that.

I didn't expect CGI and heavily postprocessed videos that were filmed on quadTitanX machines. Also didn't care for statements. Didn't know then, don't know now what is VGA trailer or whatever. Sorry about that.

If you felt like blindly following statements from one CDprojekt employee, that's not my problem. And if I didn't call upon your name during Watch Dogs scandal, please do me a favor and don't use my nick in this case. Thankyou.

Brumbek · May 27, 2015

joxer said:
There is no "many like joxer". If there were many, I'd quit internet.

I believe I already posted this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xx8kQ4s5hCY
I expected that and I got that.

…And if I didn't call upon your name during Watch Dogs scandal, please do me a favor and don't use my nick in this case. Thankyou.

Joxer, I like you because you get some stuff stuck in your head and rail on it over and over which reminds me of…me! For the record, that 35 minute Witcher 3 gameplay video actually uses the old, better renderer and features better vegetation also.

So I'm just saying you actually didn't get that version, but it is close enough that many who aren't perhaps professional or semi-professional graphic artists don't mind the difference. I say that with no ill feelings, and I totally respect people who simply enjoy games and don't care about tech nonsense!

Also, your comment about not calling on you is hilarious! Reminds me of Prince, the artist who is obsessed with his image and people not take photos of him and whatnot. You posted in this thread and I replied and mentioned you. Freedom of speech and exchange!

Can you imagine if we had this conversation in real life? I imagine you bursting in, "Do not utter my name!! TIS SACRED!!"

Anyway, sorry Joxer, I went off the rails there. Anyway, I suppose I should give hugs to you all. It's just a game. A great game at that. I'm absolutely loving playing Witcher 3, Dragon Age Inquisition, Skyrim, and Diablo 3 right now! Embrace the uniqueness of each one. XOXO

ChienAboyeur · May 27, 2015

Brumbek said:
This right here is the most common defense I've seen. "Others do bad things, too." That isn't a defense. The fact that others use false advertising isn't a defense. Everyone who uses false advertising should be called out for it.

There is no defending. Trying hard to move the focus from the question wont change it.

It is about what is attacked and giving a free pass selectively. It is not about CDR Project, CDR is just a situation that exhibits a certain pattern. CDR projekt should not be taken into account, only the attacks and their nature should.

So far: hard to found those attacks and even more, those attacks are selectively applied.

It is good to speak about how CDR insults people's intelligence, what about that though?

On this site, the demographics on the topic is clear: a fistful to underline the business practices of the crowdfunding scene, a flock to praise those practices.

In this context, laying out the claim that no malpratices from the industry should go through is making a claim against all the evidence as many practices have gone through repeatedly , it is an insult to intelligence.
Where are all the posts to notify how the crowdfunding scene behaves?

It is not about CDR Project, the fact that they behave like some others only serves to exhibit people who give free pass.

DArtagnan · May 27, 2015

I agree with vurt and Brumbek that they shouldn't have lied or pretended to be ignorant like they did.

But people are emotionally invested in Witcher 3 now, and you'll never get the fans to admit it was a mistake. People aren't wrong on the Internet, you know.

That said, I think the issue is a relatively minor one - all things considered. Mostly because I see true heart and soul all over The Witcher 3. I don't really think focusing on the marketing bullshit or misguided developer statements will get you anywhere, either - as such things will never stop happening as long as we're living in a capitalistic society.

To me, that's not "giving up" or making excuses. It's accepting reality and how powerless we are to change these things. As in, I don't even get into the fight - so I can't give it up.

We can voice our opinions and CDPR will listen to the extent they think it makes sense for them as a business. But the suits will never stop finding ways to sell the product - and developers will always make bad PR statements, because they're human - and they don't always think everything through.

As for "caring" about technical stuff, that's bullshit. I care as much - or more - about these things as anyone you care to mention. I love visual fidelity and technical evolution. But I don't enjoy playing games that don't run on my high-end rig. In the end, Witcher 3 is probably the prettiest game I've played on my PC - and it can just about run smoothly with everything enabled. Coupled with the fantastic gameplay, I can't ask for more.

So, it all boils down to a massive waste of time - going in circles about this.

Not that there's anything unusual about that

joxer · May 27, 2015

Brumbek said:
Can you imagine if we had this conversation in real life? I imagine you bursting in, "Do not utter my name!! TIS SACRED!!"

We wouldn't have it in this form in real life. It'd look completely different. I'll try to explain.

You (and vurt) are completely missing my point. We're on RPG site, but it doesn't mean we should be ignorant on other games, especially ones that sale in millions.
I've mentioned here and there on this forum when Ubisoft started to insult PC players, noone practically cared because those were not RPGs. When things are silent, when gamers are not protesting, what can you expect from publishers? And other publishers? To do the same thing. I simply find illogical to blame CDprojekt for something that exists in gaming industry for years. Why should they alone pay for the road of sins constructed by other publishers?
Even worse, it was one employee from CDpr that messed things up with his statements. We didn't see some company official statements, just an opinion from an employee. If CDpr had a proper PR spokesman, I bet none of this fuss would ever happen.

The game is now out. I don't have 2titans SLI machine thus can't turn everything to max and make for sure that the game looks exactly like the one on the 35mins gameplay video I've linked. In fact it doesn't look exactly like that, inventory is for example different, but okay, it's about visuals here. But on my GTX 760 it definetly looks close to it (maybe should try to pump it up as my i5 4670K CPU is capable of running everything maxed, dunno however how will this GPU behave under it and I don't really care if some texture is not superprecise or something).

The solution to the whole fuss is simple. It comes down to three options:

1. Forgeddit, enjoy the game and let yourself again hyped over trailers

2. Make CDpr pay for mistakes of others and never buy anything else from them, instead buy Assassin's Creed Unity right now

3. Change nothing, just remember the name of that CDpr guy and don't trust his statements anymore, not just that but next game he talks about insert a comment "will it in the end again be the same mess you created with TW3" (this is the option I'd take)

If we talked about it in real life, you'd already have an input on Ubisoft from me just like all ma friends that are into videogames do. And seriously, this TW3 "downgrade" is almost unnoticable compared to stuff Ubi did.

One thing more so it doesn't happen "noone warned us it could…".
I said. Do not, under any circumstance, buy season pass and do not ever go with the hype. Not from EA, not from Ubi, not from CDprojekt, not from anyone. Season pass is a scam. In the end it perhaps delivers, but why should you risk the money you hard worked for? Keep your cash till expansion is released, buy only if others confirm it's quality.
I didn't, hopefully you and others didn't, buy Destiny. It turned out to be an overhyped garbage. It's not the only case, but is the best case when people preorder a game believing the hype it'll be the next masterpiece of gaming, then get disappointed with actual mediocre product and sometimes even worse than that.

If we ever meet in RL, I'm paying the beer.

zahratustra · May 27, 2015

First let me state that I'm really not breathing fire about this topic and I'm playing more of a role of devil's advocate.

Brumbek said:
If you think we give Bethesda any slack, then you haven't been paying attention. I made SMIM because I realized how massively Bethesda "dropped the ball" visually.

But I don't remember you or vurt complaining about that AND it looks to me like you also did some (most welcome to be sure) covering up for Beth with your SIMM mod.

Brumbek said:
But the larger point is Skyrim didn't have any meaningful graphical downgrade at all. Bethesda never released insanely amazing footage and then gimped it.

Downgrades come in all shapes and sizes. You two are fixated on graphics but most of us aren't so let me remind you Beth's promises about procedural dragons and amazing Radiant AI.

Brumbek said:
Also, no offense to you personally, but do you think you know more about Skyrim's graphics than me, the author of a huge graphics mod that modifies thousands of art assets? I hate to appeal to expert knowledge, but I know Skyrim and I know what Bethesda showed us graphically before release.

I wasn't talking about graphics so your "I'm an expert" spiel completely misses its mark.

Brumbek said:
So you pretty much are completely and utterly misguided to bring up Skyrim as an example.

I think that you two should really start doing something about your compulsive obsessiveness with graphics. It might make you great at modding but it's a pain in the ass otherwise...

Brumbek · May 27, 2015

DArtagnan said:
I agree with vurt and Brumbek that they shouldn't have lied or pretended to be ignorant like they did.

But people are emotionally invested in Witcher 3 now, and you'll never get the fans to admit it was a mistake. People aren't wrong on the Internet, you know.

That said, I think the issue is a relatively minor one - all things considered. Mostly because I see true heart and soul all over The Witcher 3. I don't really think focusing on the marketing bullshit or misguided developer statements will get you anywhere, either - as such things will never stop happening as long as we're living in a capitalistic society.

To me, that's not "giving up" or making excuses. It's accepting reality and how powerless we are to change these things. As in, I don't even get into the fight - so I can't give it up.

….

So, it all boils down to a massive waste of time - going in circles about this.

Not that there's anything unusual about that

Excellent, rational post! You are right that people will be people because we are all fallen creatures. But for the record, vurt and I are staying on topic like good internet posters. This thread is about CDPR tackling the downgrade. Hence, why post our thoughts about it. Really we should be commended for being so on-topic. HA.

It isn't a waste of time to express my views and hear others express theirs. I appreciate your post and it has given me something to think about. I wish all internet posters (and people at large) were interested in communication and learning from each other.

zahratustra said:
I think that you two should really start doing something about your compulsive obsessiveness with graphics. It might make you great at modding but it's a pain in the ass otherwise…

Something for you to consider: vurt and I make big really great mods that millions of players love and appreciate. Then we also post comments here and there on RPGWatch giving our opinions. But I (and vurt I believe) both will play and enjoy Witcher 3. All this pain we are inflicting upon your donkey might be you taking our statements way too personally?

Do we really hurt you so deeply by expressing on-topic opinions about video games? Did you know I once made a college professor cry and cancel class for the rest of the quarter because she felt I was an intellectual terrorist? (I suggested the gold standard is far superior to the fiat currency system of the Federal Reserve) So you're in good company if my words drive you mad.

Also consider when modding tools come out for Witcher 3 I just might improve stuff for you and all players based on the ideas I've been formulating as I discuss this issue. But anyway, I suppose you'll simply never understand the mind of a crazed serial modderer like vurt or a deranged SMIMja Warrior like me. Remember to live, love, and laugh!

ChienAboyeur · May 28, 2015

Brumbek;1061330742 Something for you to consider: vurt and I make big really great mods that millions of players love and appreciate. [/quote said:
What a market. All that remains to be is an acceptable monetization of mod distribution...

Did you know I once made a college professor cry and cancel class for the rest of the quarter because she felt I was an intellectual terrorist? (I suggested the gold standard is far superior to the fiat currency system of the Federal Reserve) So you're in good company if my words drive you mad.

Click to expand...

May that talent be used on the crowdfunded scene and their practices...

GothicGothicness · May 28, 2015

Yes CD Projket lost their reputation, but they also showed they make the best games..... kind of a paradox

No wonder you people can't get along.

joxer · May 28, 2015

Sorry, I just cannot agree.
In my case, with this game, CDpr gained even more reputation.

GothicGothicness · May 28, 2015

joxer said:
Sorry, I just cannot agree.
In my case, with this game, CDpr gained even more reputation.

Yes, that is the idea of the paradox

Wisdom · May 28, 2015

Its easier to fool people than convince them they have been fooled.

TheMadGamer · May 28, 2015

On consoles, Would it have been better had CD project kept the fancier visuals so instead people would be complaining about frames per second?

Witcher 3 - CD Projekt tackles downgrade issue

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