Health Care Politics Thread

Means testing basically means if you don't need SS you don't get it, or your benefits or reduced. Right now you get social security whether you're Bill Gates or someone who only made 25,000 a year their entire life. There are arguments for and against it, but basically it would result in social security being a welfare program for the elderly who couldn't afford to actually live in their retirement years, so you would save a lot of money b/c a good section of the middle class who doesn't need social security would only get a fraction of the payments that the poor elderly would receive.

It wouldn't necessarily fix all the problems with SS, but it's usually right there at the top of any list of proposed reforms.

Now that you explain it, I realize I've heard this idea somewhere recently and it made a lot of sense to me. I imagine adjusting the FICA and Medicare levy would be mind-bendingly difficult to accomplish though. There's obviously a widespread, knee-jerk anti-tax feeling out there right now and people are *really* not going to want to pay for something they're not going to get.

Still, I think something has to be done (about this and about non-government health care) or your generation is looking at a major social and economic upheaval.
 
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Okay, true, the PO could set the price, similar to medicare. Not sure if I am comfortable with that as a way to control costs, though... It fails to address the underlying reasons for the high costs and poor performance.
 
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Okay, true, the PO could set the price, similar to medicare. Not sure if I am comfortable with that as a way to control costs, though… It fails to address the underlying reasons for the high costs and poor performance.
Somebody call the cops. There's an imposter posting as Thrasher and he sounds like...*GASP*...a republican!

Amen, brother, and pass the ammunition. Price controls like ObamaCare do nothing to address the root problems of cost. At best they squeeze a balloon, and at worst they fail to even accomplish that bit of "magic".
 
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Well there is this top down (kinda like tinkle down) theory that pressure will cause the providers to cut the fat, leaving them to make the decisions, which may not be in our best interests, but in the best interests of ... *SHOCK* ... business profit. O_O
 
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Apologies in advance for the novel, but this subject is extremely complicated and riddled with misconceptions

Price control obviously won't do it all, but it is a start, and it takes a small hatchet to bill-padding fraud and abuse. (During my bookkeeping years, I did a stint in the medicare billing dept. of a large nursing home, and you wouldn't believe how complicated the process is, and how it almost invites abuse. Same with any insurance company billing.) Hanging a simplified standard price tag on common goods and procedures is far from being a useless tool. I agree there are a lot of other things that need to be done to control costs, though.

AFA addressing high costs and poor performance, there are a lot of things the PO can do, even without strict price controls. The public option, while not a silver bullet by any means (that would be creating a single payer system like every other advanced nation in the world) has two main advantages out of the starting gate:

1) In an exchange where the public option competes with private insurance options, it can be offered at a lower price, that is, at a price that breaks even rather than makes a consistently rising profit for shareholders. This helps regulate low-end to mid level private policy prices and premium increases while still allowing for private companies to offer high end policies to those who can pay for them.

2) Having a mandate with the choice of a public option + a medicaid expansion absorbs a large number of people into traditional medical care who now only get treatment at the emergency room. This reduces the passing on to the whole insurance pool of the costs of catastrophic care in the ER.

(This also includes millions of people who now never see a doctor getting routine preventive care, though no one can provide figures that show prevention actually makes healthcare cheaper, for some reason. Probably because the cost of tests and procedures in the short term is higher than an unknown number of dollars saved over no cancer or diabetes in the long term.)

AFA poor performance, that's what Obama was trying to address with his proposal to take the best ideas from the most efficient HC providers in the country, examine how/why they work and standardize them across the industry. There's a commission created in this bill to start doing that, though again, I don't have a lot of faith in commissions. There's also a commission to pinpoint and rule on medicare fraud and abuse and a provision to create and maintain an electronic patient database, and some emphasis on the aforementioned preventive care.

You guys have put me in the position of defending a deeply flawed bill that I have many doubts about, but I'm doing it because the alternative to this bill will be that absolutely NOTHING is done to fix health care. It will be a toxic political football for generations, and that ultimately along with the disintegrating educational system and the shrinking middle class, means the failure of the whole country.

So, what choice is there? Once repubs retake the congress and WH, which they will by 2016 at the latest barring the Second Coming, I don't think anyone exactly expects them to institute Medicare for All, despite their current attempt to portray themselves as the custodian of the program. They're much more likely to try again to dismantle and privatize it, and to ignore the need to regulate the insurance industry, as market regulation in any form, however rudimentary, is again not something that's exactly a plank of their platform. So if anything is going to be done there really is a very small window to do it.
 
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Sen. Dana Stabenow(D.Michigan) has an excellent, easy to read, step by step summary of the entire Senate Bill up here:
http://stabenow.senate.gov/healthcare/Patient_protection_section.pdf

For more info on the subject, I particularly recommend looking at the section called TITLE III—IMPROVING THE QUALITY AND EFFICIENCY OF HEALTH CARE
Subtitle A—Transforming the Health Care Delivery System and
TITLE IV—PREVENTION OF CHRONIC DISEASE AND IMPROVING PUBLIC HEALTH
Subtitle A – Modernizing Disease Prevention and Public Health Systems
for the ideas I talked about above.

For example, here's a snip about prevention from just one of what I called commissions and they are calling Task Forces:
The U.S. Preventive Services Task Force is an independent panel of experts in primary care and prevention that systematically reviews the evidence of effectiveness of clinical preventive services such as colorectal cancer screening or aspirin to prevent heart disease, and develops recommendations for their use. The Community Preventive Services Task Force uses a public health perspective to review the evidence of effectiveness of population-based preventive services such as tobacco cessation, increasing physical activity and preventing skin cancer, and develops recommendations for their use.
 
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Price control obviously won't do it all, but it is a start, and it takes a small hatchet to bill-padding fraud and abuse. (During my bookkeeping years, I did a stint in the medicare billing dept. of a large nursing home, and you wouldn't believe how complicated the process is, and how it almost invites abuse. Same with any insurance company billing.) Hanging a simplified standard price tag on common goods and procedures is far from being a useless tool. I agree there are a lot of other things that need to be done to control costs, though.

^Well said. I believe simplification of the process/procedures and a standardized price for common(even most) goods/services would go a long way. Which leads into my inquiry...

If the public option is considered a decent enough idea, why not go all the way and nationalize the entire health care industry(no joke – a serious Q)? So long as there exists a shareholder profit driven aspect to the industry there will always be that proverbial windmill(WS + profits).

IMO another potential issue is the AMA and their stranglehold on the medical industry, they control the supply(and arguably caliber + type) of doctors in America. Has their involvement contributed negatively to our current situation?

Lastly, another issue that has been bothering me: What will be done to incentivize healthier lifestyle choices? On the flip side, will healthy people be punished - forced into paying higher rates(I know some healthy folks who get bare minimum coverage to protect against cancer and other high cost situations)? Obesity, sexual activity with multiple(or countless) partners, drug abuse and other generally unhealthy habits have contributed to rising costs…

What happens when the baby boomers begin to retire? The high cost of maintaining the status quo will get even higher. Over time a greater level of risk(age related ailments) will be spread across a smaller and perhaps poorer group.
 
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^Well said. I believe simplification of the process/procedures and a standardized price for common(even most) goods/services would go a long way. Which leads into my inquiry…

If the public option is considered a decent enough idea, why not go all the way and nationalize the entire health care industry(no joke – a serious Q)? So long as there exists a shareholder profit driven aspect to the industry there will always be that proverbial windmill(WS + profits).
Actually being as how it's been both poorly explained by the dems and widely proclaimed as a 'government takeover of healthcare' by the repubs, unfortunately the PO isn't seen (let alone understood) as a decent enough idea by enough people (read:voters) though there's still a little fight left in that dog, I hope.

As for universal healthcare, Obama made a decision at the beginning of the process that nationalizing the healthcare system was not going to be the way to go—he started with the premise that generally people liked their insurance for the most part, and the HCR plan should preserve the private insurance system. This decision, which I strongly disagree with btw, rested on pragmatism mostly, I think. The feeling was it was a bridge too far, and to some extent I agree it's difficult to find the political will to do such a controversial, complex and wide-sweeping overhaul with the broken, polarized government we have at present. But considering the outcome of compromised legislation, negative political impact and public disillusion that we have with health care reform right now, I hardly see how going for an easily understood Medicare For All concept could have been much worse.

I mean what would have happened, Obama would have been called a socialist and compared to Hitler or something? :p

I'll let somebody else get a word in on your other points as I have a bad habit of monopolizing this discussion.
 
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Sen. Dana Stabenow(D.Michigan) has an excellent, easy to read, step by step summary of the entire Senate Bill up here:
http://stabenow.senate.gov/healthcare/Patient_protection_section.pdf

Nice summary! I need to spend the time to read this! On a quick scan it looks like there are some provisions to help cut costs, for example requiring standard electronic reimbursement mechanisms by providers and insurers to reduce administrative differences and overhead. That changes my opinion right there. :)
 
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For those who may have missed it, welcome to the last act of the kabuki theater presentation "Healthcare Reform We Can't Understand (or Believe In)":

Reid Affirmatively Signals Reconciliation Sidecar [Firedoglake, aka Liberal Hell]

We're down to the final stretch and it's hair-pulling and teeth-grinding time for those like me who don't know whether they want the bill to pass or fail. I've been dragged into defending it several times in this thread, but I can't say I really believe this bill is what it should be or that it will accomplish what it needs to accomplish. The hopes of the leftier lefties are pinned on the 'fixes' to the bill that will be added through the notorious reconciliation process, and no one is saying exactly what those will be:
http://www.rollcall.com/news/44121-1.html
In all this process, there've been very confused signals about the public option. The WH, while giving it a very token lip-service, is hampered from actually pushing for it, imo, by back-room deals with Pharma and the insurance PACs( Thanks, Rahm.) There's a letter signed now by 40 some senators saying they would vote for it if it's included in a reconciliation package, and Dick Durbin says he'll whip the votes for it IF it's in that package:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/03/12/dick-durbin-ill-whip-aggr_n_496559.html
The question is, will it be able to pass the House with a PO? They've already had to cut loose the Stupak abortion crowd, Kucinech won't vote for it on the grounds it's a pos giveaway to the insurance companies, and who knows what all the blue dogs will do. To me, it's absolutely the only thing that justifies the mandates.

As I say, teeth grinding time. :S

EDIT: Apparently the Pell Grant provision is going to be in, and Pelosi is signaling that they're getting very close to having the votes—plus the prez is setting back his Asian vacation to continue the arm-twisting and/or bribery:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100312/ap_on_bi_ge/us_health_care_overhaul
 
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Pelosi answers my question, and helps eliminate some of my teeth-gnashing by saying No to the PO in the sidecar.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/03/12/pelosi-public-option_n_496559.html
Apparently it's about not being able to get the anti-abortion cartel to flip their votes and needing to find them elsewhere amidst the DINOs:
Even were she to push for a public option, she might not be able to get it through her chamber this time around, despite succeeding the last time. Several Democrats who have backed the bill, and are supporters of the public option, are bucking the Speaker this time, objecting that their restrictive abortion language is not in the legislation.
Pelosi said after the briefing that abortion law changes could not be made in the reconciliation, a process that must stick only to budget matters. That means Pelosi needs to flip 'no' votes who thought that the earlier House bill was too liberal, and adding a public option could complicate that process.

Now we'll have to see if Grayson's medicare buy-in gets any legs. (Not holding my breath.)
http://news.firedoglake.com/2010/03/12/grayson-up-to-50-co-sponsors-for-medicare-buy-in-bill/
 
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Just so long as he doesn't come here!! :)
 
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Hey, we owe you for Rupert Murdoch. ;)

Seriously, I don't think you need to worry--there's better, cheaper drugs in Costa Rica.
 
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Man, what's with the ceiling paintings from the Renaissance? Who knew the spokesman for the common man had such aristocratic taste.

Since I'm trying to stay on topic while covering all the crazies, I warn all the righties to avert their eyes from this one so we bitter libtards can enjoy a good jeer without raising their blood pressure:
http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/...-health-care-law----we-dont-have-to-video.php
 
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