Skyrim - Building Better Combat

Building Better Combat is the latest Skyrim exclusive at GameInformer. The article discusses the more visceral combat with a two-handed system that allows freedom to equip anything in either hand, the defense system, improved magic with inspiration from Bioshock and stronger archery. A snip:

A good offense must be accompanied by a good defense. To make defending a less passive activity, Bethesda has switched to a timing based blocking system that requires players to actively raise their shields to take the brunt of the attack. If you hold down the block button, your character will attempt to execute a bash move. If you catch a bandit off guard with the bash while he's attacking, it knocks him back and exposes him to a counter or power attack. Players can block and bash with two-handed weapons as well, but it isn't as effective as the shield. Warriors who prefer the sword-and-shield approach can increase their defensive capabilities with shield perks that give them elemental protection from spells.
Bethesda also smartly changed the pace at which characters backpedal, which removes the strike-and-flee tactic frequently employed in Oblivion. In Skyrim you can't bob and weave like a medieval Muhammad Ali as you could in Oblivion. Players can still dodge attacks from slower enemies like frost trolls, but don’t expect to backpedal out of harms way against charging enemies. If you want to flee, you must turn your back to the enemy and hit the sprint button, leaving you exposed to an attack as you high tail it to safety.

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More information.

…improved magic with inspiration from Bioshock

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:-o

With regards to combat - the ducking/dodging of enemies always infuriated me. I remember trying to target enemy casters - who bobbed and weaved and whipped this way and that way, in total contradiction of known physics. If they implement a more realistic movement model, I;d support that - as long as it applies to AI enemies too. Back-pedaling is a major exploit - I'm glad they're plugging it.

As for (non-magical) shields protecting from spells - not sure i like that. Sure, an area blast spell makes sense. But touch or targeted, which could immolate you? No. If its enchanted then sure, but allowing any plain old shield to be empowered with such an awesome a 'perk'? Many mages (esp AI/scripted ones!) deal most of their damage with elemental spells - if you neutralize that with 1 perk that seems a step towards treating a spell as a simple weapon. What if you have specialized as a destruction/elemental mage?

I want to play this on the kinect. I'd never have to worry about going to the gym again. Hours and hours of blocking, running, bashing and swinging. Of course I will look like an idiot doing that, but it's no different than when my friends and I used to bash the living hell out of each other with homemade swords and shields. Well, maybe a little different. Not so many bruises or smashed fingers from broom handles.

The DLC will probably allow you to do that.... as long as you also buy a sword and a shield...... this is going to be the new way to earn money for sure.....

Sounds like an improvement. I really liked M&B's system, on horseback or off. Interesting that after 15 years of saying No one can do horseback combat, the big companies have switched to saying …

I've thought that a skill check against dexterity (agility?) should happen when running backwards as well, maybe modified by the type of terrain. If you fail, your character falls briefly and is open even more to attack. Enemies should have to go thought the same skill check.

Running backwards in a suit of armor outdoors or in a dark dungeon should neither be fast nor should it be impossible to trip and fall.

Loved the "spells" in Bioshock, so that's a good thing

Would be interesting with a system that lowered or raised the skills accordingly to the lighting conditions and enviorment.

Funny the new industry buzzword is visceral. Do the industry people take the same class on buzzwords?

Glad they are trying to make combat more interesting as it has pretty much sucked since all games went to real time. It does seem to be moving more towards action though. I assume skill checks will still be made when swinging,dodging and blocking?

You want hardcore combat, play "Die by the Sword"

I think they better make sure the leveling/scaling/etc makes sense first - back-pedaling was the only thing keeping me alive, what with super-powered bears and such later in the game (later, but not further, that is)

Dark Messiah is the few fantasy games that has had truly interesting combat system. More games should copy it.

zadokAllen said:

You want hardcore combat, play "Die by the Sword"

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I could never get to grips with the controls in that game.

zadokAllen said:

I think they better make sure the leveling/scaling/etc makes sense first - back-pedaling was the only thing keeping me alive, what with super-powered bears and such later in the game (later, but not further, that is)

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;-) I used back-pedaling way too often - it was almost like the devs expected you to (?) But its really pretty implausible - they need to fix combat and re-balance encounters to reflect things (esp if its more challenging)

EDIT: one thing I loved about Morrowind was being able to levitate...just go up and "pew pew pew" pepper the offending bear with destruction! hah! I'd be willing to overlook almost anthing else if they bring back levitate...

I know this probably won't be popular with some of you, and I don't mind some improvements in the combat, but I'm not keen on seeing so much attention to combat, combat, combat.
How about some fishing? Lumber jacking with real carpentry skills and home building? Hunting, and skinning with drying and stretching of skins, leather working.. I think you can see where I'm going.
Never do I see attention to what I think an RPG fantasy world should be working on, and it makes me sad.

You want hardcore(?) fishing, play a Zelda game

zadokAllen said:

You want hardcore combat, play "Die by the Sword"

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I was going to suggest 'Severance: Blade of Darkness'.

zakhal said:

Dark Messiah is the few fantasy games that has had truly interesting combat system. More games should copy it.

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Seriously? I could die happy without seeing another kickfest like DMoMM. It was different in the sense that it was a true fantasy FPS style game, but it wasn't very good and the overused environmental hazards made kicking much better than anything else you could do.

I could go on, but really - I hope that whatever actiony sort of combat that Skyrim has doesn't adopt any of DMoMM's innovations. Actually, I hope that they're still different styles of games since DMoMM was so shallow and actiony - Oblivion may have been dumbed down but it didn't go that far.

JDR13 said:

I was going to suggest 'Severance: Blade of Darkness'.

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Do you know that RPG stands for Role Playing Game? Exactly what part of repeating combat movements over and over and over and over and over and over is being a Role Playing Game?

Maybe you two non-RPG playing people could go play an adventure game or an FPS game for it's combat movements over and over and over and over and over and over and over and be really happy people? That would be my suggestion to you two in return for your really way too kind suggestion to me.

JDR13 said:

I was going to suggest 'Severance: Blade of Darkness'.

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Absolutely. I still think that BoD has the best melee combat system of any game out there (quite an achievement for a ten year old game). It took some time to get used to because of the unique controls, but man was it addicting thanks to the absurd tactical depth and having to actually "aim" for an opponent's weak spots instead of just clicking a button for a generic attack. Defensively, it was impressive that you had to manuever wisely instead of "speed-jogging" around an enemy. Players also couldn't simply turtle behind a shield. And did I mention that severed heads could be used as projectile weapons?

Back on topic, I'm excited about the possibility of better combat in Skyrim. Combat isn't the most important aspect of an RPG of course, but because combat is inevitable, I would welcome a deeper combat system that actually requires some strategy.

mediocrepoet said:

Seriously? I could die happy without seeing another kickfest like DMoMM. It was different in the sense that it was a true fantasy FPS style game, but it wasn't very good and the overused environmental hazards made kicking much better than anything else you could do.

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Kicking was overused but fun. Every combat game should have it in som form. Apart from that combat in DM was above the generic whacking or totally unrealistic bunny hopping (i.e divinity2). You actually had to do somthing in the battle instead of just more or less slowly grinding your enemies to death.

mediocrepoet said:

I could go on, but really - I hope that whatever actiony sort of combat that Skyrim has doesn't adopt any of DMoMM's innovations. Actually, I hope that they're still different styles of games since DMoMM was so shallow and actiony - Oblivion may have been dumbed down but it didn't go that far.

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If they are planning to improve combat then as far as I understand it will mean more action. It has always been part of ES and its time past to improve it.

Not sure I like the fact that you cant uphold the shield in skyrim like DM. It was good to just keep it up at times. But in skyrim it seems blocking only is an instant action.

The way it's described you can no longer just hold a shield in front of you, you can only tap a button to instantly block an incoming blow, or hold the button to perform a special attack.

In action games this layout is typically used for parrying/deflecting/counter-attacking, not for blocking, which is usually a continuously held function.

Anyone know of a game where blocking is only an instant button tap action and doesn't suck?

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Apparently the block/attack button is based on som oblivion mod.

Greymane said:

Maybe you two non-RPG playing people could go play an adventure game or an FPS game for it's combat movements over and over and over and over and over and over and over and be really happy people? That would be my suggestion to you two in return for your really way too kind suggestion to me.

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There's no need to be an ignorant prick.

I thought we were talking about combat mechanics in general.

Greymane said:

Do you know that RPG stands for Role Playing Game? Exactly what part of repeating combat movements over and over and over and over and over and over is being a Role Playing Game?

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Ehm, the role of a Fighter - or pretty much any role that needs to overcome hostiles?

Maybe you want to craft a nice oak table, and suggest to the salivating dragon that you sit down for tea and debate the proper ingredients for a decent vegetarian soup

Sounds kinda fun, actually.

Maybe you two non-RPG playing people could go play an adventure game or an FPS game for it's combat movements over and over and over and over and over and over and over and be really happy people? That would be my suggestion to you two in return for your really way too kind suggestion to me.

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I'm sorry if you don't enjoy combat in an RPG, but it's pretty rare not to. Developers are bound by limited resources and they need focus on that which will ensure maximum return.

I don't mind them implementing a proper crafting system, and in fact I'd warmly welcome it - but we all know that they wouldn't get a proper return on their investment (or that of the suits), seeing as how few people really enjoy that sort of thing. Not based on the big picture, at least.

In any case, there's no need to be so defensive because of an innocent joke.

Like it or not, you ARE in the minority if you don't enjoy visceral combat as a human male.

Personally, I'd like for Bethesda to focus less on the spectacle as well - but I'd rather have them work on better mechanics and writing than anything else. If they expanded their TES system and learned how to write engaging and PLAUSIBLE dialogue - their games could rival the Gothics, and perhaps even outdo them.

But they're all about the spectacle, so take it or leave it.