Pope Francis describes ‘ideological Christians’ as a ‘serious illness’

Bad semantics all. Truth is absolute, belief is personal. For example, my age right now is an absolute truth. Everyone has their own belief for my age. Religious dogmatics like to push their religious beliefs as truth. It's purposely deceptive.

Actually, truth is not by definition absolute, but just the most accurate and factual description of current information.


Now it's important to understand what "true" means :


Oxford Dictionary goes even further as to state :


So, not absolute either.

People who deal with absolutes usually fail to see that they are 'absolutely' wrong

Truth is per definition absolute, what we know of it less so.
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/absolute

Anyway, my wives don't let me sit on my arse debating metaphysics on an RPG forum all the time, especially when you people keep moving goal posts. But let me have one final say for now.

Dogmatically religious people (especially those that believe in the concept of sin) love to compare atheists to child molesters. "Religion is the only source of law," the assumption goes, "So if you don't have religion, you don't have any morality, and so you're just like a child molester.

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I'm not saying atheist cannot be moral or that the faithful never do harm, rather that atheist have no standard against which to measure goodness. You just don't seem to get that without Allah there can be no good or bad to begin with, only being. Your concept of what is good or bad is probably just Christian leftovers that have started to rot.

Well, that's just your version of the truth.

The fuzz the media made about this is beyond me. The fact you guys are so troubled about it also.

Why do you care about Catholics being "more inclusive" anyway? Will you join the Church if it bends over to every liberal demand out there? Why can't you accept people not joining YOUR secular pc bullshit creed? Fact is Vatican II broke the Church and turned away people who were disappointed by the destruction of standards. I personally know many old people who grew up in the 50's and 60's and pretty much gave up on the Church once it abandoned sound doctrine and liturgy in exchange of a free for all with the intent of "opening itself to the world". In fact, my favorite sci-fi author, the great Arthur Miller Jr KILLED HIMSELF because of it. He was a traumatized war veteran who was basically saved by his faith. Once the Church became the liberal baloney it is today the poor guy had no shelter anywere and shot himself in the head. I only frequent parishes belonging to the SSPX and if that closes down I will be unable to practice my faith as well. I can imagine the suffering he had. Can you imagine your OWN Church prohibiting you from practicing your faith the way your ancestors had been doing for centuries and then trying to force you into accepting some bullshit lutheran mass with guitars and priests reading marx and engels in the pulpit.

The Anglicans and the Lutherans are the "church" of your dreams bros. They got it all: gay marriage, female clerics, everything. You know how well they are doing? Not well at all. According to you they should be booming with conversion, yet they are mostly empty and disappearing. People want truth, they want right and wrong , they want beauty and they want tradition. They don't want a "priest" wearing a rainbow scarf and singing "everyone is everything" while the female "bishop" strums her electric guitar.

I wondered where you were. If the rest join as well, we can have a party.

Pladio said:

Actually, truth is not by definition absolute, but just the most accurate and factual description of current information.

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Nope. Not the truth I am talking about. You cherry picked the definition in the dictionary that suits your beliefs. I can do the same thing. This is the one that matters.

Pladio said:

People who deal with absolutes usually fail to see that they are 'absolutely' wrong

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People who fail to recognize absolutes are naive or dishonest with themselves.

BTW if you have to resort to an online dictionary to prove your point, that usually means you have no valid argument. A word can mean two completely different things depending on context.

It's true that the denominations which embrace progressive ideals are the ones who are progressively losing all their members: the Anglican church, the ELCA Lutheran church, the United Church of Christ, etc. The ones who gain members are those who stay true to sound Biblical principles. In the Western world it would be mostly the Evangelicals.

And no, moral relativism doesn't pass the acid wash of reality at all.

Thrasher said:

Nope. Not the truth I am talking about. You cherry picked the definition in the dictionary that suits your beliefs. I can do the same thing. This is the one that matters.

Spoiler: Merriam Webster

Full Definition of TRUTH

1
a archaic : fidelity, constancy
b : sincerity in action, character, and utterance
2
a (1) : the state of being the case : fact (2) : the body of real things, events, and facts : actuality (3) often capitalized : a transcendent fundamental or spiritual reality
b : a judgment, proposition, or idea that is true or accepted as true <truths of thermodynamics>
c : the body of true statements and propositions
3
a : the property (as of a statement) of being in accord with fact or reality
b chiefly British : true 2
c : fidelity to an original or to a standard
4
capitalized Christian Science : god
— in truth
: in accordance with fact : actually

Spoiler: Oxford dictionaries

The quality or state of being true:
he had to accept the truth of her accusation
MORE EXAMPLE SENTENCES
SYNONYMS
1.1 (also the truth) That which is true or in accordance with fact or reality:
tell me the truth
she found out the truth about him
MORE EXAMPLE SENTENCES
SYNONYMS
1.2 [COUNT NOUN] A fact or belief that is accepted as true:
the emergence of scientific truths
the fundamental truths about mankind

People who fail to recognize absolutes are naive or dishonest with themselves.

BTW if you have to resort to an online dictionary to prove your point, that usually means you have no valid argument. A word can mean two completely different things depending on context.

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Lol

The statement you bolded does not say anything with regards to truth being absolute by the way.

It says exactly what I said. What is to be taken as fact with the most current information.

If information changes, so can the truth.

For now most non-religious people take the Big Bang as fact and being truthful, if new information came to light that disproves this then the truth i.e. :

a (1) : the state of being the case : fact (2) : the body of real things, events, and facts : actuality (3) often capitalized : a transcendent fundamental or spiritual reality
b : a judgment, proposition, or idea that is true or accepted as true <truths of thermodynamics>
c : the body of true statements and propositions

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Would change.

Just as the example where the laws of thermodynamics might be reviewed if something alters it.

A fact is subject to information at hand and can be altered if new information comes to light.

But yes, you are right and we are discussing semantics which can be used to mean different things.

You can have the last word if you want on this. I don't mind.

Digger Nick said:

Truth is per definition absolute, what we know of it less so.
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/absolute

Anyway, my wives don't let me sit on my arse debating metaphysics on an RPG forum all the time, especially when you people keep moving goal posts. But let me have one final say for now.
I'm not saying atheist cannot be moral or that the faithful never do harm, rather that atheist have no standard against which to measure goodness. You just don't seem to get that without Allah there can be no good or bad to begin with, only being. Your concept of what is good or bad is probably just Christian leftovers that have started to rot.

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Except that pre-Christian and pre-Muslim societies also had their version of moralities, not dependent on Allah.

Add to this the thousands of other non-Abrahamic societies which existed prior to them with their own version of morality.

Hey, let's get Biblical (what in a religious thread?? ) Jesus said "I AM THE TRUTH" What more needs to be said?

Pladio said:

Lol

The statement you bolded does not say anything with regards to truth being absolute by the way.

It says exactly what I said. What is to be taken as fact with the most current information.

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That is absolutely not true. The definitions I picked have nothing to say about evidence or information.

(1) : the state of being the case : fact (2) : the body of real things, events, and facts : actuality

a : the property (as of a statement) of being in accord with fact or reality

1.1 (also the truth) That which is true or in accordance with fact or reality:

Fact, reality, events, are all absolutist terminologies. There is no estimation or assessment implied. They are what they are.

So you're not making any sense here, and contradicting the FACTS of the situation. I guess I can understand why you would have trouble understanding TRUTH.

Pladio said:

You guys are mistaking truth for morality I believe.

While the truth can't always be found, it does not mean it does not exist.

Morality on the other hand is a different concept to truth and is usually just determined by the people or societies.

Whilst Digger Nick and many other religious people would often say there is an absolute morality (I'm not sure you said that DN, but just that religious people often do), it is simple to see from his own example that that is not the case.

The truth is something that cannot determine right and wrong though. Truth can only determine if something is factually correct or not (with facts at hand).

So it is not true that my eyes are neon-yellow.
It is true that I am typing this message on a Lenovo branded laptop.

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Whilst Digger Nick maybe comparing morality, I wasnt. Truth affects everything. Imagine not knowing that 2+2=4 is true for example. We need to know what is right and wrong in every area or we couldnt have moved forward as a society.

Digger Nick said:

Truth is per definition absolute, what we know of it less so.
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/absolute

Anyway, my wives don't let me sit on my arse debating metaphysics on an RPG forum all the time, especially when you people keep moving goal posts. But let me have one final say for now.
I'm not saying atheist cannot be moral or that the faithful never do harm, rather that atheist have no standard against which to measure goodness. You just don't seem to get that without Allah there can be no good or bad to begin with, only being. Your concept of what is good or bad is probably just Christian leftovers that have started to rot.

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So subjugation of women is 'good'? What a joke.

Here is a truth for you small-minded religious sheep - ANY religion which doesn't recognize absolute equality of men and women is OBVIOUSLY a man-made construct, and has absolutely no basis in moral constructs.

You do not need some made up book of crap to tell you what to do. There is a reason ALL of the religions share a fairly similar set of rules around 'the way' ... because it is all about being a basically good person. No mystical overlord required. Just a brain and some common sense and decency.

And actually most religions are WORSE - because they are rooted in domination, subjugatin, and spread through violence. Any religion that allows murder in its name is morally bankrupt.

Corwin said:

Hey, let's get Biblical (what in a religious thread?? ) Jesus said "I AM THE TRUTH" What more needs to be said?

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Did he? So say a bunch of males who wrote a book tha justifies discrimination and subjugation of women, and that has been used as justification of the death, torture and brutal treatment of billions. So if THAT is the truth ... no wonder the world is a mess.

txa1265 said:

So subjugation of women is 'good'? What a joke.

Here is a truth for you small-minded religious sheep - ANY religion which doesn't recognize absolute equality of men and women is OBVIOUSLY a man-made construct, and has absolutely no basis in moral constructs.

You do not need some made up book of crap to tell you what to do. There is a reason ALL of the religions share a fairly similar set of rules around 'the way' … because it is all about being a basically good person. No mystical overlord required. Just a brain and some common sense and decency.

And actually most religions are WORSE - because they are rooted in domination, subjugatin, and spread through violence. Any religion that allows murder in its name is morally bankrupt.

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(that's my second one today...!)

I have no problem with religions or religious people - so long as they realize that their faith is all about them and their internal deal with their creator. So long as their practice of faith is a self-directed behavior, I am very happy ... I am a Christian and my children are also baptized Christians.

But once you begin to use religion to negatively circumscribe the life, liberty, or happiness of others ... THAT is when I have a problem.

txa1265 said:

But once you begin to use religion to negatively circumscribe the life, liberty, or happiness of others … THAT is when I have a problem.

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^This.

Then it's less about a personal covenant with your maker and more about a little something called theocracy.

It's about power, when it goes beyond that. Which I feel is the root of all evil (money being just one of many possible paths to power).

txa1265 said:

Did he? So say a bunch of males who wrote a book tha justifies discrimination and subjugation of women, and that has been used as justification of the death, torture and brutal treatment of billions. So if THAT is the truth … no wonder the world is a mess.

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I just want to point out that it never "justifies" these things. It allowed, yes. But there is a whole other side to it that i am not sure we should get into unless you want to side track this thread.