Turn-Based vs Real-Time Combat @ CRPG Addict

Dhruin

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We probably don't give The CRPG Addict the coverage he deserves for some reason but lostforever gives us a nudge and points out this post on Turn-Based vs Real-Time combat. It's a debate that's gone on for a lng time but here's a snip from the CRPG Addict's view:
Turn-based combat is dead. I know it. I can't even remember the last game that featured it. Pool of Radiance: The Ruins of Myth Drannor, probably, which was boring beyond belief, but not because of the combat. I actually really liked that part. Anyway, here, in these older games, I can still enjoy it.

These are what I see as the relative advantages of turn-based combat.

1. I know exactly what each character and enemy is doing. When a foe casts a spell, I can see what the spell is, and I know how to counter it. I never wonder why I suddenly got paralyzed, or knocked down, or killed.

2. You notice details. In turn based games, when a PC gets an extra attack, you actually notice it, and it makes the battle measurably easier because of it. I can pay close attention to how much damage various weapons are doing. The effects of special attacks are very apparently. Check out my fighter performing a "sweep" in the video below. Notice how satisfying it is to see all the enemies fall, one by one. In a real-time game, you'd blink and miss it.
More information.
 
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umm, no- fallout3, kings bounty, heroes of might & magic to name a few.
besides lots of indie Crpg's that are doing it (eschalon, voices of winter)
 
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The BioWare games are somewhere between action and turn based. Pause-based.

Personally, I like all three.

Turn Based: Lots of time to THINK. That means the developer can (and hopefully will) make a very deep, complex combat system. On the minus side, it feels much less like a battle and more like some abstract game.

Action Based: Now you've got something that looks like a battle. However, since you now only have a split second to make your decisions, you can't carefully consider two dozen options. Either the combat system has to be simplified or the game has to be pretty long and sloowly add the complexity.

Pause Based: Looks more like a battle than turn based but the pausing means it will never look as much like a battle as an action based game. Can allow for more complexity but, unless you expect the player to pause every second, it can't be as complex as a turned based game.
 
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The BioWare games are somewhere between action and turn based. Pause-based.

I feel like they are moving away from that direction over to straight action based though. DA2 is much more button mashy that DA:O imho. You still can pause of course but I see much less reason to and noticed I paused far less than when playing the original game.

Of course I haven't played with the latest patch that supposedly changes the arrangement of enemies so that more strategy is useful.
 
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Dear person who cannot be bothered to research your own article properly,

Temple of Elemental Evil came after Ruins of Myth Drannor. (2003 and 2001 respectively). One of your conclusions is also false. Turn based is not dead and can be seen in indie games such as Knights of the Chalice.

Furthermore, I mostly played Baldur's Gate as real-time with pause game - it also had options to pause it during particular moments in combat to make it resemble a more genuine turn based game. This isn't reflected in the article.

To be honest, there have been far deeper threads and articles on this subject at the Codex; particularly from back in the 2007-8 period. Otherwise, the article had some fun nostalgic moments.
 
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not to mention (but I'll mention it anyway) there's been some recent low budget rpg-lite titles such as Grotesque and Faery:Legends of Avalon that are turn-based combat. To make the real-time-pause titles Turn based, you almost have to turn off the tactics and go puppet mode.

TB (turn-based, not tuberculosis) isnt really dead, it's just not that popular, but it's there if you look for it. Or want to interpret the "real time pause" thing as TB.
 
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Turn based is no longer the design of choice (hence it is dead)

Weird assertions though,

Turn-based games are more tactical. When each character's turn comes up, I can pick the best strategy based on the totality of the battlefield, not the one foe that happens to be in front of me.
More tactical because you do not have to determine your strategy firmly? Sounds weird. Or this guy has strategy and tactics confused or mixed.

But they also had a couple of features that games like Dragon Age lack. First, you could set the game to pause when certain things occurred, like a character dying or an enemy casting a spell. This allowed you to check things out, re-evaluate, and issue a new set of orders.
DA:O possibly lacks options for auto pauses but it looks like laziness. The battle pace is not that fast you miss death events. Maybe it is better not to get an auto feature as it can lead the player to pause the game before losing a member of the party, planning ahead.

You notice details. In turn based games, when a PC gets an extra attack, you actually notice it, and it makes the battle measurably easier because of it. I can pay close attention to how much damage various weapons are doing.
It joins the strategy/tactics remark. If you have planned a strategy for your party, you cant miss certain 'details' as you might have planned the tactics around the details. You are expecting them.


Combat is only one element in RP. cRPGs have taken a difficult path by putting emphasis on combat. Due to budget limitations, it is difficult to compete with other genres that can allocate more of their budget to combat with no harm while withdrawing money from other RP support features.

cRPGs are fighting a lost cause: other genres got their priority right in this regard as now, they can implement additional features without losing themselves.

cRPGs with their stress on combat, have condemned themselves to lag behind. Like ME, combat orientation means competing with shooters directly, shooters that can allocate a larger share of their budget to combat with little harm to the rest of their core gameplay. The result is that more and more money from a cRPG has to be allocated to combat therefore withdrawing from the support capacity to other RP features.

As a genre like shooter has had its priorities right, now a certain how to do is secured on key points to deliver shooter experience, this genre can progress and explore new features to enhance the shooter experience.
Furthering story, character progression etc… without taking from RPG. On the contrary. Shooters have built their foundations and are now adding on them.
 
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Its all about the details. Lately Ive played the new combat mission normandy from battlefront and it offers both realtime and turn-based. There is always somthing unexpected or interesting that happens in the game and if I played realtime Id miss 95% of it. Often I also like to replay som of the best moments from different angles.

I.E

"Is that a handgrenade that is flying towards me?"
http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn22/Br1lle/Combat Mission/CMBN_Granate.jpg

"Hans got overrun by his own tank. Jeez"
http://www.fredrock-racing.com/images/tanker.jpg

"Group picture before heading to combat"
http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m219/BradS_62/CMNormandy.jpg
 
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I've said this in pretty much every TB vs RT discussion, but I don't mind repeating myself.

I generally only enjoy TB when there's an option to pass easy fights, such as in HoMM where you can choose to fight automatically or simply ignore the fight if your army is vastly superior.

I just can't stand squishing rats in TB mode. It's a drag. Instead of a fluent "schwing" motion to remove the pesky bugger, the entire game is stopped and enters combat mode just for me to squish yet another critter.

Overall I prefer RT or RTwP, but I do enjoy TB as well - when there's an option to pass easy fights.
 
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It's very good blog where the authors love for all things RPG comes out very nicely. The blog has other posts about ancient CRPGs no one really plays anymore. I read about them but I don't think I can get myself to play any of them :)

Anyway if anyone likes to play old games and have look at the blog.

The only real turn based game I liked was Wizardry 8 and I really liked the combat but I agree with Maylander above that one need to be able to skip "easy" fights.

I wonder if you can combine real time and turn based combat in one game...
 
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Turn based is for deep thinkers, real-time for quick thinkers :)
I hate when I'm pushed by limited time, so I don't play much real time strategies/rpgs.
I love when I have all the time in the world to make the _right_ decision. I don't give a single damn about 'realism' or 'immersion' of the combat.
I'm currently playing King's bounty again, along with Age of Fear.

I wonder if you can combine real time and turn based combat in one game…
Fallout Tactics?
 
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Turn based is for deep thinkers, real-time for quick thinkers :)
I hate when I'm pushed by limited time, so I don't play much real time strategies/rpgs.
I love when I have all the time in the world to make the _right_ decision. I don't give a single damn about 'realism' or 'immersion' of the combat.
I'm currently playing King's bounty again, along with Age of Fear.


Fallout Tactics?

Not heard of it but will check it out. Is it any good?
 
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Turn based is for deep thinkers, real-time for quick thinkers :)

Tactics are most of the time routine to be applied in certain circumstances.

If you developp your strategy before going into combat and the tactical sets going with it, time is no longer the factor you depict.

Time grows as the factor to recognize situations and apply the correct tactics (stemming from your strategical approach) to the ongoing situation. Slower time resolution does not make a game more tactical. It simply gives more time to spot the adequate pattern.

Turn-based combat might be as fast in the decision taking process as real time combat. And it shows anytime you deal with battles coming up with situations tactics are well known for.
Getting the player to scud through them, without even thinking of it.

Turn based combat allows the player to get into battle with no strategy or little as time is available to think of a strategy.

Real time combat forces to plan a strategy and the tactics going with it beforehand.

Not much to do with deep thinking or quick thinking.
 
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I like both, but for different kinds of games. If I'm trying to recreate a board game, I like turn based. If I'm wanting to play a made-for-computer game I prefer real time.

The best mix I've seen was Space Hulk, the 1993 game by EA. Awesome, terrifying, nerve-wracking.
 
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made-for-computer game

This means nothing. Computers are devices capable of simulating various kind of experiences. Saying one kind of these experiences is more computer-like than other is ridiculous.

I like thinking games regardless of the hardware - be it table or computer.

As for "preparing your strategy beforehand" - no, not enough space for thinking, as you have incomplete information at the beginning and not enough time to adjust the strategy later.
 
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Turn based is for deep thinkers, real-time for quick thinkers :)

I agree.

The "uprising" of RTS has several points :

- RTS is far easier to implement; TBS on the oher hand has too many details (similar to action-RPG vs. "old school" RPG)

- the industry doesn't like TBS (costs ?), thus they only do RTS

- RTS & action are far easiert to test, simply because of the long time span of TBS fights -> cost reduction

- nowadays, people just never become accustomed to TBS, as a result they find it boring -> result : kind of an "education" of players towards RTS & action

- no adrenaline in TBS ( I often think of a kind of "addiction" to adrenaline in modern players, something like an "addiction" to human endorphines, which makes some people doing sports not for fun, but becaue they want to feel good - similar to drug addiction, only coming from within; I don't know if sex addiction also falls into this category; hooligans also brawl only for the adrenaline their fight behaviour gives to them)

- TBS fights don't give "InstantLoot (TM)" for the players -> no "shopping" aka boss-raids possible

- this implies that RTS & action are catering those who are impatioent in terms of gaming -> even worse, RTS & action positively supports (in terms of psychology) impatient behaviour !
 
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As for "preparing your strategy beforehand" - no, not enough space for thinking, as you have incomplete information at the beginning and not enough time to adjust the strategy later.

At the beginning of what?

Adjusting strategy later? Later than what?
 
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I agree.

The "uprising" of RTS has several points :

- RTS is far easier to implement; TBS on the oher hand has too many details (similar to action-RPG vs. "old school" RPG)

Too many details in what way? Details are functional of the available technology. Today RTS might have more 'details' than yesterday's RTS.

- the industry doesn't like TBS (costs ?), thus they only do RTS

Turn based games are still vivid in low cost gaming. Quality turn based games can be developped on niches.
- RTS & action are far easiert to test, simply because of the long time span of TBS fights -> cost reduction
Maybe, even through procedural testing looks more affordable for TBS games at first glance.
- no adrenaline in TBS ( I often think of a kind of "addiction" to adrenaline in modern players, something like an "addiction" to human endorphines, which makes some people doing sports not for fun, but becaue they want to feel good - similar to drug addiction, only coming from within; I don't know if sex addiction also falls into this category; hooligans also brawl only for the adrenaline their fight behaviour gives to them)
Personal experience. Dont you feel adrenaline when that character's life is hanging to that strike in turn and press "end turn"?
- TBS fights don't give "InstantLoot (TM)" for the players -> no "shopping" aka boss-raids possible
It might depend on the game.
- this implies that RTS & action are catering those who are impatioent in terms of gaming -> even worse, RTS & action positively supports (in terms of psychology) impatient behaviour !

Non turned based games can including farming and grinding. Spending lots and lots of time doing the same real action to get little result in the end (grinding at least)
 
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Its all about the details. Lately Ive played the new combat mission normandy from battlefront and it offers both realtime and turn-based. There is always somthing unexpected or interesting that happens in the game and if I played realtime Id miss 95% of it. Often I also like to replay som of the best moments from different angles.
Same here. Liking CMBN a lot (I confess, I'm an old CM grog, all the way from the misty old CMBO days). I like the turn-based WeGo mode a lot and would love to see a cRPG try it once. You could have all the "whiz-bang" and mayhem of real time animation and what have you, but all of it with turn-based sensibilities. Make the turn e.g. 5-10 seconds long and have the player control 6-8 characters. Oh that'd be cool. One can always dream…

Heh, good screenshot. However, that grenade is not going to do much with its lever (AKA spoon) still in place - it's essentially just an elaborate rock that way.
 
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