Why We Love… The Infinity Engine (And Despair For BioWare)
- Thread starter Von Paulus
- Start date
The "And despair for Bioware" is so stupid, like if only Bioware could do that, like if Fallout 1 and probably 2 never been released, The Witcher or Dragon Kinght Saga are bag of crap, like if Icewindale series includes a single top quality RPG. And I can list and list.
All of those players that suddenly wake up and seem found that older RPG classics are the only marvel… but they let die for good, Arcanum, Temple of Elemental Evil, Drakensang series. Those sudden mass of "old school" players since "ton of year" never buy games like Avernum series or Eschalon Book series and sure they are fan of old school RPG.
So well it's one more stinking article contributing to a brainless and blind anti hype. Please, please, make Bioware died quickly to have them shut up with all their crap lie and mouth full of hypocrisy. An angelic smiley follow.
Well common the author of the article will never read that.- Joined
- Oct 14, 2007
- Messages
- 3,258
I think that you misinterpreted the article... or maybe not.
I read it very very fast and I agree with many thing I read, what irritated me is just the title part, "(And Despair For BioWare)", why put Bioware into that? As if they alone made modern RPG or they alone can make more old school RPG. That is enough for me to fully discredit the guy who wrote this.
But also that a great RPG can only be Old School... Then stop the worldwide gigantic hype about The Witcher 2, because there's no RPG more anti Old School than The Witcher 1. And anyway I disagree there's a single canvas for making great RPG.
- Joined
- Oct 14, 2007
- Messages
- 3,258
What does The Witcher have to do with this article? I have a feeling you still didn't get the point.
@Von Paulus- Nice read.. thanks for posting it.
Drithius
Magic & Loss
I don't really like the subtext of that article. While it purports to be talking about the Infinity Engine, it suggests that Bioware is responsible for all the games they cite - from Torment, down through Icewind Dale. Black Isle is only off-handedly mentioned.
And this...
Give me a break, heh... I miss the Infinity Engine platform as much as the next guy, but the senseless drool over some quasi-romanticized visage of Bioware's past is a bit much to handle in this article.
And this...
Give me a break, heh... I miss the Infinity Engine platform as much as the next guy, but the senseless drool over some quasi-romanticized visage of Bioware's past is a bit much to handle in this article.
Ok I read more carefully the article and now its title stinks even more than I suspected with a too quick overview of the text.
There's simply no link between the title and the article, and the title smells a lot like a sheep following the current Bioware/DA2 anti hype.
Now I read it and if I forget the title:
I'd say, slow down the speed of fights and give DA3 to Obsidian, here what I could want for a next RPG. And I don't believe a second Baldur's Gate 2 could sell as well than it did nowadays by using texts only plus few random voices, by using the same old technology. This sort of technology costs a lot less time than 3D, a dev leader from Square Enix was mentioning than making a remake of a game that used a similar old Iso technology, but making it in 3D would cost ten time more time and then is impossible nowadays.
There's a total and complete link with this article and The Witcher 2. This article highlight some values and seem pretend only that is good, and The Witcher 1 is just at exact opposite. And despite tW1 at the exact opposite, The Witcher 2 still the next RPG that "everybody" love, and this everbody are also all sudden first fans The Witcher 1… Well if this guy was doing the same article to explain how The Witcher 1 is a crap to not have follow the rules of the infinity engine, that would be more original.
There's simply no link between the title and the article, and the title smells a lot like a sheep following the current Bioware/DA2 anti hype.
Now I read it and if I forget the title:
- Put Icewindale as the final achievement is drolatic. I understand it's about fights but still, how the article set it, it seems like the ultimate goal. And I seriously disagree.
- And about those RPG being the top of tactical fights isn't an opinion I don't share, even Icewindale only its first half part is exemplary. I consider DAO fights more deep and offering more diversity than any of the RPG quoted including Icewindale. Icewindale first half still at top, because of ton of time spend into a careful designing of any fights, not because of the engine itself. And I'm playing DA2 and despite the awful speed its fights are better than DAO, but it's just a first feeling, finishing it and replay it will give me a more right point of view.
I'd say, slow down the speed of fights and give DA3 to Obsidian, here what I could want for a next RPG. And I don't believe a second Baldur's Gate 2 could sell as well than it did nowadays by using texts only plus few random voices, by using the same old technology. This sort of technology costs a lot less time than 3D, a dev leader from Square Enix was mentioning than making a remake of a game that used a similar old Iso technology, but making it in 3D would cost ten time more time and then is impossible nowadays.
There's a total and complete link with this article and The Witcher 2. This article highlight some values and seem pretend only that is good, and The Witcher 1 is just at exact opposite. And despite tW1 at the exact opposite, The Witcher 2 still the next RPG that "everybody" love, and this everbody are also all sudden first fans The Witcher 1… Well if this guy was doing the same article to explain how The Witcher 1 is a crap to not have follow the rules of the infinity engine, that would be more original.
Last edited:
- Joined
- Oct 14, 2007
- Messages
- 3,258
Seems like some people are still missing the point.
He's not trying to say Bioware is solely responsible for the current state of crpgs. Bioware is a primary focus in the article however, because he's comparing current games to games made using the Infinity Engine, which they developed.
He's not trying to say Bioware is solely responsible for the current state of crpgs. Bioware is a primary focus in the article however, because he's comparing current games to games made using the Infinity Engine, which they developed.
Possibly I don't understand the article, ok I can admit that.
But let me point that nope this article isn't just about Bioware, here some quotes of it:
I wonder how you can argue that. I understand you want avoid we got one more flame exchange between us, but keep personal quotes and bad jokes out of it and everything will be fine.
But I think you don't understand that it's the title my main problem with this, and more generally, this article implicitly quote there's only one model to make a great RPG and that makes me smile a lot. That's also typical bad arguing used to reinforce the Bioware/DA2 current anti hype.
And about that the little detail I just hate:
But even if I forget the title I disagree with many points: This article makes a confusion between this engine and puzzles disappearing, texts instead dialogs, and even less tactical fights is a quite false/wrong analysis. None of those values are particular to this engine, even about tactical fights.
EDIT: Forgot mention:
And I could make a very very long list to highlight it's not that simple than what want pinpoint this article.
But let me point that nope this article isn't just about Bioware, here some quotes of it:
So no it's not about Bioware only, and because of that the title of this article stinks a lot.
I wonder how you can argue that. I understand you want avoid we got one more flame exchange between us, but keep personal quotes and bad jokes out of it and everything will be fine.
But I think you don't understand that it's the title my main problem with this, and more generally, this article implicitly quote there's only one model to make a great RPG and that makes me smile a lot. That's also typical bad arguing used to reinforce the Bioware/DA2 current anti hype.
And about that the little detail I just hate:
Like if this engine last use isn't almost ten years ago and the complain is just now, at release of DA2.
But even if I forget the title I disagree with many points: This article makes a confusion between this engine and puzzles disappearing, texts instead dialogs, and even less tactical fights is a quite false/wrong analysis. None of those values are particular to this engine, even about tactical fights.
EDIT: Forgot mention:
- The Witcher 1 is better than all those text only RPG from all points related to writing and quoted in this article.
- In my opinion DAO (and probably even more DA2) is better in fights depth and range of possibility category.
- That fight of PS:T are quite bad despite the engine use.
- That story and writing of Icewindale is a crap despite text only.
- DKS is better than all those expect perhaps BG1 on the exploration point of view.
And I could make a very very long list to highlight it's not that simple than what want pinpoint this article.
- Joined
- Oct 14, 2007
- Messages
- 3,258
That's the way I interpret it. Sure they aren't the inventors of the genre but BG, and Torment are, for many people the pinnacle of cRPG.
Planescape: Torment was developed by Black Isle though (the guys who are now over at Obsidian), not BioWare, as was Icewind Dale. BW only developed two games with the Infinity Engine: BG1 and 2.
They did create the engine itself, however, and I'm very happy they did. Amazing engine, as the article points out.
In short, I agree that it's probably the best RPG engine we've seen.
Well I already bring solid arguments showing it's a doubtful interpreting, no the title and the contents doesn't match at all. You seem see like a detail the "And Despair For BioWare" in the title but that's a huge detail, for me it's like you are ignoring a tree in your eye.
For BG and PST being the pinnacle well count me out. I'm still trying get over the first parts of PST and I consider DAO/DA2 fights deeper and more interesting despite the flaws than the whole BG series. I also consider none reach from far The Witcher in term of writing quality, depth and merging with gameplay. And none but perhaps BG1 reach the exploration quality of DKS. Also I'm not sure companions of BG2 are half as deep than those of DAO but well the merging in gameplay is a lot better done in BG2.
- Joined
- Oct 14, 2007
- Messages
- 3,258
Well I already bring solid arguments showing it's a doubtful interpreting, no the title and the contents doesn't match at all. You seem see like a detail the "And Despair For BioWare" in the title but that's a huge detail, for me it's like you are ignoring a tree in your eye.
That's because you insist on acting like the article is a personal attack against Bioware, which it isn't. All of his points are valid.
Thanks for the correction.
All his points could be valid (I disagree) but the title stinks and has not link with the article.
I notice you agree now on this point, at least for the "no link" part, the "stinks" is my opinion and I have this opinion because of the lack of links between the content and the title.
For the other points its a complicate story, I disagree mainly because I don't think the contents quality is linked to the technology ie the engine:
- Even for the text only The Witcher shown it can be done much better with voices only.
- For fights that DAO/DA2 fights are deeper.
- That fights quality of Icewindale don't come from the engine the proof is how PST fights are bad. If DAO design of each fight had as much care than those of Icewindale the picture would be quite pale for Icewindale. But it's clearly not the case and not an engine problem but a time and orientation choice problem.
- The only point I would agree that it is linked with the technology so the engine, is the use of Iso. 3D involves a boost in costs and time when compared to Iso and that could change a lot, but go sell now a game with Iso non true 3D….
- Joined
- Oct 14, 2007
- Messages
- 3,258
Drithius
Magic & Loss
The writer dramatically proclaims that Bioware is the "inventor of in-depth RPG's" and some of you guys still take it seriously? There were plenty of good RPG's before Bioware came along with the Infinity Engine.
The entire article reads like some schoolboy crush dashed by drama.
There were plenty of good RPG's before Bioware came along with the Infinity Engine. The entire article reads like some schoolboy crush dashed by drama.
Again you mention The Witcher. I'm not sure why you're so infatuated with trying to compare party-based tactical cprgs with an action-RPG.
Deeper than what? The Witcher? I guess "deeper" is subjective, but I certainly wouldn't say they were deeper than Baldur's Gate 2.
The writer dramatically proclaims that Bioware is the "inventor of in-depth RPG's" and some of you guys still take it seriously?
I don't think that's what he was saying. To quote him…
I'm pretty sure he's referring to crpg developers in general, not Bioware specifically. Why would he use the word "bastions" in plural?
Drithius
Magic & Loss
Honestly, I'm not sure now - the article is poorly written and very generalized. He talks about Bioware for the entire article and then suddenly makes the conclusion that ALL developers are dumbing down games? Washing my hands of it - it's like trying to comment on a child's new Crayon drawing: you'll see what you want to see, but not on the merits of the drawing itself.
blatantninja
Resident Redneck Facist
His point seems to me very clearly made: The infinity engine delivered a beautiful, huge world in every game, but the limitations of the technology forced the writers and world builders to make everything else meaningful. The focus wasn't on the graphics (which even in 1998 were starting to be aged) so the developers had to focus on the other areas where the could deliver a AAA game. And doing that provided substance that is missing from most modern games.