Risen - Steam Sale

toltec7 said:

I pretty much agree with almost anything you post here to an extent where I don't feel I have to write something myself.
And you're right on this one to an extent.

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You sound quite reasonable

You can look at games as art or products of technical skill and knowledge.
Of course, as art, they might be worthless to you or me and that's fine. But anyone can create art, it's totally subjective and who are we to say what's art to begin with.
Not anyone can create games. Objectively, it takes huge skill, persistence and time to produce something as Risen. And if the final product meets technical standards of quality (bugfree and optimized) you cannot just dismiss its value.
It's a product of technical knowledge and as such it holds value regardless of what your feelings of it might be.
You can say "Mercedes cars suck" but to say they're worthless cause you think they suck is stupid.

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First of all, I don't think it has anything to do with what skill it takes.

Developers are usually paid for their work before the game is released, because otherwise they wouldn't be able to sustain themselves. In fact, they're typically paid normal wages throughout development - and the sales have no influence on that in many cases.

Now, if a game is released - it can either be worth its price or not. That's something entirely subjective and it has NOTHING to do with the effort or skill it has taken to create.

I don't go around "rewarding" people for their hard work, if I don't attribute value to what they're doing. ESPECIALLY not if they're ALREADY paid for their hard work.

Nor would I, ever, expect to be paid for my work by people who found no value in it.

I didn't tell PB to make a game, nor do I feel entitled to anything from them. They chose to be developers - and I'm sure they're very happy and proud of their work. If people don't think their games are any good - then they should probably stop making games. However, it seems most people DO think their games are good - and so they can go on making games.

I also don't go around handing out money on the street to working people, even though I'm sure there are MANY of them who're working hard every day. They're not entitled to extra money and developers are definitely not more "worthy" of hand-outs, just because they're making games. Hard work is hard work - no matter what the hell you're doing. What matters is what you produce and what that does for people.

If someone doesn't think Risen was a good game, and if that someone openly says he doesn't think it's worth much money - then that's his opinion about the value of the product. Nothing more.

It's not some kind of objective truth about what the game would be worth to every single person in the world, and reacting as if it was - is a mistake. This is the mistake I'm pointing out.

It's painfully simple, really.

Oh, and I can reveal that the value of a Mercedes - in my opinion - is CONSIDERABLY less than the price they're charging for it. To me, a car is about getting from A to B in a reasonably fast, comfortable, and safe way - and my own car can do that just fine. It's VERY cheap compared to a Mercedes, by the way.

What it actually takes to make a Mercedes, and what other people think it's worth - is something I have absolutely no interest in. It has nothing to do with me, and what I want from a car.

To sum up: nothing is objectively valuable. Not fine art, not expensive cars, not love, not sex, not anything.

There's nothing you can say that will touch that, and you should know - being so reasonable

At this price I couldn't resist. I'm a big fan of Gothic 1 & 2 but Risen was kind of off my radar after the technical mess that was Gothic 3. It looks like I've been missing out, because so far the game seems great. Everything I loved about Gothic 1 & 2 seems to be incorporated and refined with a better interface.

DArtagnan said:

You sound quite reasonable



First of all, I don't think it has anything to do with what skill it takes.

Developers are usually paid for their work before the game is released, because otherwise they wouldn't be able to sustain themselves. In fact, they're typically paid normal wages throughout development - and the sales have no influence on that in many cases.

Now, if a game is released - it can either be worth its price or not. That's something entirely subjective and it has NOTHING to do with the effort or skill it has taken to create.

I don't go around "rewarding" people for their hard work, if I don't attribute value to what they're doing. ESPECIALLY not if they're ALREADY paid for their hard work.

Nor would I, ever, expect to be paid for my work by people who found no value in it.

I didn't tell PB to make a game, nor do I feel entitled to anything from them. They chose to be developers - and I'm sure they're very happy and proud of their work. If people don't think their games are any good - then they should probably stop making games. However, it seems most people DO think their games are good - and so they can go on making games.

I also don't go around handing out money on the street to working people, even though I'm sure there are MANY of them who're working hard every day. They're not entitled to extra money and developers are definitely not more "worthy" of hand-outs, just because they're making games. Hard work is hard work - no matter what the hell you're doing. What matters is what you produce and what that does for people.

If someone doesn't think Risen was a good game, and if that someone openly says he doesn't think it's worth much money - then that's his opinion about the value of the product. Nothing more.

It's not some kind of objective truth about what the game would be worth to every single person in the world, and reacting as if it was - is a mistake. This is the mistake I'm pointing out.

It's painfully simple, really.

Oh, and I can reveal that the value of a Mercedes - in my opinion - is CONSIDERABLY less than the price they're charging for it. To me, a car is about getting from A to B in a reasonably fast, comfortable, and safe way - and my own car can do that just fine. It's VERY cheap compared to a Mercedes, by the way.

What it actually takes to make a Mercedes, and what other people think it's worth - is something I have absolutely no interest in. It has nothing to do with me, and what I want from a car.

To sum up: nothing is objectively valuable. Not fine art, not expensive cars, not love, not sex, not anything.

There's nothing you can say that will touch that, and you should know - being so reasonable

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well, points can be made in less words
the end part makes sense and is true (in theory) but that's not how the world works. your opinion on Mercedes simply doesn't matter cause the majority prevails.
If you were offered a Renault and Mercedes we both know you'd take the Mercedes if only to sell it, buy the Renault and keep the extra money. By doing that you're admitting its value cause simply it's there. That's how much it costs. If you had to spend your money, you wouldn't, but you're aware of its price and others are too. That's how the world works and you can't touch it

toltec7 said:

You can say "Mercedes cars suck" but to say they're worthless cause you think they suck is stupid.

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I can say, that I don't think, that the Mercedes XYZ isn't worth X bucks. It's hard to say they are worthless, because at least you still an sell them. But we are talking about a computer game here and if the new price is 15 bucks, you probably can't even sell it on Ebay anymore (or, more precise, I wouldn't do so, because I get paid more when I worked in my job the same amount time I would have to invest to offer, sell, package and ship it).

Honestly, the only thing I wanted to say is, that I wouldn't pay 15$ for the game (assuming I didn't already have the game and assuming I knew how the game was) and that I consider the money I spent on this game (yes, I bought it soon after it came out) not well spent. But you know the old saying: YMMV.

Alrik Fassbauer said:

The problem are buyers of hot dogs from freelance hot dog sellers, who don't even want to pay for the hot dogs !

And that regardless of the quality !

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But we are not talking about these people here.

toltec7 said:

well, points can be made in less words
the end part makes sense and is true (in theory) but that's not how the world works. your opinion on Mercedes simply doesn't matter cause the majority prevails.

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What do you mean it doesn't matter?

It matters to me, and possibly those looking for input trying to determine what something is worth.

Oh, and those interested in my opinion for whatever other reason.

If you were offered a Renault and Mercedes we both know you'd take the Mercedes if only to sell it, buy the Renault and keep the extra money. By doing that you're admitting its value cause simply it's there. That's how much it costs. If you had to spend your money, you wouldn't, but you're aware of its price and others are too. That's how the world works and you can't touch it

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No, I'm not admitting its value.

I'm recognising that other people think it's valuable and taking advantage of that.

There's a difference.

Irian said:

I can say, that I don't think, that the Mercedes XYZ isn't worth X bucks. It's hard to say they are worthless, because at least you still an sell them. But we are talking about a computer game here and if the new price is 15 bucks, you probably can't even sell it on Ebay anymore (or, more precise, I wouldn't do so, because I get paid more when I worked in my job the same amount time I would have to invest to offer, sell, package and ship it).

Honestly, the only thing I wanted to say is, that I wouldn't pay 15$ for the game (assuming I didn't already have the game and assuming I knew how the game was) and that I consider the money I spent on this game (yes, I bought it soon after it came out) not well spent. But you know the old saying: YMMV.

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it's worth 15$ now and that's what you were aiming at so fair enough, but anw, if a product has a market (and almost everything does) then it has a value for anyone able to sell it.

toltec7 said:

it's worth 15$ now and that's what you were aiming at so fair enough, but anw, if a product has a market (and almost everything does) then it has a value for anyone able to sell it.

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It's not worth 15$ to someone who wouldn't want to pay for it.

We're talking about the value of the experience, not about whether someone would be willing to pay 15$ for it or not.

DArtagnan said:

I'm recognising that other people think it's valuable and taking advantage of that.

There's a difference.

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and so in the end it in fact does have value for you...
maybe I'm too big of a materialist to see the big difference as i would also not likely buy a Mercedes but would gladly own it.

anw, my points are i guess 2...
there are tangible objective qualities in products determined by their technical properties even if all artistic and subjective qualities are removed though clearly both must coexist
and 2, each product with a market has its objective value at least passively (possibility of exchange for something owner deems valuable)

let's agree to disagree, 'night

toltec7 said:

and so in the end it in fact does have value for you…
maybe I'm too big of a materialist to see the big difference as i would also not likely buy a Mercedes but would gladly own it.

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It doesn't have extra value to me as a car, no - well, maybe a little but it's still just a neat car. It has value to other people, and I can take advantage of that to earn money as per your example.

This has nothing to do with a gaming experience though.

Again, we're not talking about the monetary resale value - we're talking about the value of the GAMING experience.

anw, my points are i guess 2…
there are tangible objective qualities in products determined by their technical properties even if all artistic and subjective qualities are removed though clearly both must coexist
and 2, each product with a market has its objective value at least passively (possibility of exchange for something owner deems valuable)

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No, there are no such qualities. If there were, everyone in the world would be able to recognise them.

Yeah, monetary value and the resale market is what we're suddenly talking about.

In that way, I'm sure even my feces could be sold to someone - if I looked for a buyer long enough.

It's at that point that our discussion is no longer about whether Risen is objectively a good game worth the price - and as such, I see no point in going on.

toltec7 said:

let's agree to disagree, 'night

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That might be a good idea

Night night..

Berserk Panther said:

At this price I couldn't resist. I'm a big fan of Gothic 1 & 2 but Risen was kind of off my radar after the technical mess that was Gothic 3. It looks like I've been missing out, because so far the game seems great. Everything I loved about Gothic 1 & 2 seems to be incorporated and refined with a better interface.

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*Attempts to make an on-topic post*

I haven't played Gothic 3 myself, but I think it's safe to say that Risen is the most polished game by PB yet, so cast all fears aside!

I think you can't go wrong with the game if you loved Gothic 1 and Gothic 2, just as long as you don't expect anything revolutionary. In fact, my two biggest complaints with the game were that the game was too similar to the first two Gothic games (hardly a bad thing) and that the Hero wasn't really all that likable. Well, that and the fact that the last two chapters weren't all that great.

Bought it, downloaded (quite fast), installed and defragged the drive.

Haven't played it yet. (though I played the demo months ago)

But I consider it a "good deal" for the sheer possibility of receiving a fun RPG adventure in a world I'm not familiar with.

The anticipation and ability to explore a new game and new content is easily worth the $15....providing there are no game breaking bugs strewn throughout. Which I've yet to see, read or hear about, so I think I'm pretty safe in this department. Unlike other games I've purchased (Dungeon Lords I'm pointing at you lol)

So you all can debate(bicker?) the worth of the game if you want but the simple answer is (imo) that if a game creates enough interest that you decide to purchase the game at whatever cost point...that becomes it's market value.

But one man's feast is another's famine. I bet there are those out there who throughly enjoyed Dungeon Lords and feel it was worth whatever price they paid. I personally wouldn't pay $1 for it knowing what I know now.

But that's the thing...cost and enjoyment are too different animals. I accepted the cost of the game at the time of purchase...from there on out it's "worth" to me will vary and be determined by me level of enjoyment.

Depending on such the game can either rise and increase in worth to me OR fall and fail miserably in the entertaining department.

This scale of enjoyment varies from player to player AND is influenced by many various factors. Primarily being (i would guess) the game mechanics and how well the game functions (as in are there many bugs that hamper play and enjoyment)...and so forth.

This again is subjective to a degree but one can safely assume that the majority of player's "enjoyment" will decline in accordance with an increase of problems and bugs.

Rarely I would think that someone gets enough info about a game to decide that it's one that they are interested in and then later upon playing decides that they absolutely hate the game and setting and makeup of the game.

We typically know enough, going in, about the game to have a pretty solid idea.

So........

Basically all things like mechanics and playability being equal....it winds up being "subjective" meaning to comes down to personal tastes. Tastes can be explained and even defended but they can't ever be completely wrong.

Some like the color Blue while others don't. Is there a good logical reason for either opinion? No.

And you'll never be able to argue with and convince someone that they're wrong in their personal taste choice.

Worth is measured by how much "enjoyment" we receive from said game. ( i'm talking games here not commodities lol)

If I wind up really enjoying my time with Risen then you can bet that I'll feel that is was worth $15 and most likely feel it's worth more.

If I don't enjoy because of subjective reasons like quests or dialog or controls or color scheme or character/creature models...then the game imo then would be worth what I payed. I basically decided to PAY for the opportunity to try the game and roll the dice to see if i enjoy the experience.

If I wound up disliking the game because of programming errors and bugs and poor playability....I certainly would feel ripped off and not be very pleased with the game and company and publisher.

That's how I personally look at buying and playing games lol

Wow that turned out to be far longer than i planned...so enough typing, it's time to play a game called Risen

Regards