Pope Francis describes ‘ideological Christians’ as a ‘serious illness’

ChienAboyeur said:

It might have been a Christian but there is nothing in the Bible to justify the abolition of slavery. Nothing.

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Actually it is not true.

Slavery as per biblical standards is very misunderstood. In the old testament and for the Jews, slavery basically existed because there was nothing like social assistance and the needy had nothing to sell but themselves to be provided for. After a while the slaves could become free too.

In the New Testament slavery is not justified in the letter of St Peter and St Paul. Some people say that they do, but what they are really saying is that slaves should keep a dignified and mature attitude even though they are kept in a servile position.

Also in the New Testament there is the story of St Paul encountering in prison a slave who has been converted to Christianity. He writes to his master telling him to welcome him back not as a slave but as a brother in Christ.

Ripper said:

Or, to put it briefly, you compromise on the hard details of the scriptures as it suits you, while using them to criticize others, as it suits your prejudices.

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I don't think there is anything in the Bible against having a hobby or enjoying life or having a few nice things. None of these are things which affect how we treat others in and of themselves. It is when that treshold is crossed that it becomes a problem. And it is when we seek a pernicious pleasure through entertainment or materialism.

Humanity has risen! said:

Actually it is not true.

Slavery as per biblical standards is very misunderstood. In the old testament and for the Jews, slavery basically existed because there was nothing like social assistance and the needy had nothing to sell but themselves to be provided for. After a while the slaves could become free too.

In the New Testament slavery is not justified in the letter of St Peter and St Paul. Some people say that they do, but what they are really saying is that slaves should keep a dignified and mature attitude even though they are kept in a servile position.

Also in the New Testament there is the story of St Paul encountering in prison a slave who has been converted to Christianity. He writes to his master telling him to welcome him back not as a slave but as a brother in Christ.

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That all just reads as an approval of slavery.

Just to correct one point about the Bible and slavery; if you read carefully you will note the year of Jubilee (which came around regularly every 50 years) mandated that all slaves were to be freed!!

Slavery was commonplace in most of the history of the world. Christian Medieval Europe was indeed the first civilization to condemn it, at least partially. It was considered abhorrent and evil to enslave a fellow Christian, and some monastic orders and holy orders of knighthood were formed with the goal of freeing enslaved Christians captured by the muslims and pagans.

For the ancients, for muslins, for pagans and for the Byzantine Christians slavery was simply part of the natural order. It was thought that some people were simply born into it, that some people simply enjoyed being mandated because it was part of their nature, and it was quite common for people to sell themselves into slavery in order to find safety and sustenaince. Do keep in mind that the treatment hitorically given to slaves was usually mild. In ancient Rome there is vast record of slaves being freed by their masters, given positions and rising socially.

Terra Terram Accusat

Humanity has risen! said:

It is tertiary and simply a way to share happy things with others. The headphones for example I am discussing with a friend who enjoys it as well and we make comparison and talk about the music we enjoyed listening on it. So it is what I really value, not materialism in and of itself.

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Luxury watches? $1000 Alpha Primes for the ultimate auditory experience, when they could feed a starving family for a month? You're only doing it to enhance your kinship with friend who is a connoisseur of such luxury? Tell it to Saint Peter!

Acts 2 44-45 said:

All the believers were together and had everything in common. They sold their property and possessions to give to anyone who had need.

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Philippians 3 7 said:

But whatever gain I had, I counted as loss for the sake of Christ. Indeed, I count everything as loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. For his sake I have suffered the loss of all things and count them as rubbish, in order that I may gain Christ.

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1 John 3 17 said:

If anyone has material possessions and sees a brother or sister in need but has no pity on them, how can the love of God be in that person

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Galatians 5 19-23 said:

Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

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James 5 said:

You have lived on earth in luxury and self-indulgence. You have fattened yourselves in the day of slaughter.

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1 John 2 16 said:

For everything in the world—the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life—comes not from the Father but from the world.

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As I said, I've worked with Christians in Africa - CAFOD, Christian Aid. Some of these people live in tin huts without running water, treating infectious diseases. I might take a lecture on Christianity from them. You, at your computer, in luxury watches and $1000 headphones, ranting about immoral women, depraved gays and decadent jews? I don't think so.

2 Corinthians 11 13 said:

For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ. And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. So it is no surprise if his servants, also, disguise themselves as servants of righteousness. Their end will correspond to their deeds.

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Catholicism has always been about moderation, Ripper. That has always been a reason for its success as a religion. Not everyone has the strenght of will to be a monk or hermit and not everyone has the vocation or desire to do so.

Saint Paul himself acknowledged that on occasion, as when he indicated marriage for those who could not hold celibacy. He was a stern man and his greater influence in the west is the main reason why stronger demands are made of Catholic clergy than Orthodox ones(i.e: marriage and celibacy). As for poverty, there have been many wealthy saints whose holyness was beyond question. It is not wealth itself that is a sin, it is being chained to it in a worldly manner that corrupts a man.

FretRider said:

Catholicism has always been about moderation, Ripper.

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Thank you - you make my point.

Moderation - as in compromising and not holding themselves (or each other) to the harshest, most literal interpretation of the Bible is what every Christian does, unless he is quite mad. Of course I'm not suggesting that every Christian should actually take a vow of poverty - but when someone says that their extreme attitudes in a few selective areas are justified by their "uncompromising" adherence to scripture, while engaging in sensual luxury and hugely self-indulgent spending, I'm calling bullshit.

The Bible does not state that wealth itself is a sin - but it does very clearly point out that it is a huge impediment to accessing Heaven, and it has a great deal to say about how wealth should be used, not consuming more than you absolutely need, luxury, indulging the pleasures of the senses, and so on. It tells you to leave your gold and silver in the sand, or throw it into a river.

In the New Testament, compare the amount of column inches Christ discusses the evils of wealth and materialism, compared to sexual indulgence. Indeed, the only times Jesus does encounter sexual indiscretion, he is primarily concerned with telling all the sanctimonious windbags to leave them alone, and attend their own souls. "I tell you, the prostitutes will enter the Kingdom of Heaven ahead of you."

Terra Terram Accusat. Earth accuses earth. Christians are to mind their own business, and leave the judgments to Heaven.

Humanity has risen! said:

None of these are things which affect how we treat others in and of themselves. It is when that treshold is crossed that it becomes a problem. And it is when we seek a pernicious pleasure through entertainment or materialism.

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Nonsense - read your Bible. The evils of luxury and indulging the earthly senses are considered sins in their own right - nothing to do with affecting your attitude towards others.

Seeking "pernicious pleasure through entertainment or materialism" is also a canard. Wasting time in entertainments that do not glorify God is a sin in and of itself. Materialism is a fundamental and grievous sin - it is focusing on the worldly rather than on the spirit of God. "Pernicious pleasures" are a separate, specific matter.

Ripper said:

Thank you - you make my point.

Moderation - as in compromising and not holding themselves (or each other) to the harshest, most literal interpretation of the Bible is what every Christian does.

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"Literal interpretation of the Bible" is what protestants do with their sola scriptura. That is the origin of lamentable and tragic stupidity such as creationism, "christian science" and Jehova's witnesses ban on blood transfusions.

That has no place in traditional Christianity. Our main source of religion and doctrine is tradition, and scripture is only a part of that tradition. By itself and interpreted without the light of tradition, the Bible can be easily made into nonsense. The more than 40.000 conflicting protestant sects in existence can easily attest to that truth.

You suggest that we should strive for a society of meek, tonsured and chaste pacifists sworn to a life of poverty and celibacy. That wouldn't last more than a generation. It is frankly quite stupid.

Bibliolatry is the mainstay of Islam. Not Christianity.

FretRider said:

You suggest that we should strive for a society of meek, tonsured and chaste pacifists sworn to a life of poverty and celibacy. That wouldn't last more than a generation. It is frankly quite stupid.

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No, you didn't read or understand what I wrote:

Ripper said:

Of course I'm not suggesting that every Christian should actually take a vow of poverty - but when someone says that their extreme attitudes in a few selective areas are justified by their "uncompromising" adherence to scripture, while engaging in sensual luxury and hugely self-indulgent spending, I'm calling bullshit.

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He is the one talking about adhering to the word of the scriptures, and that is what I refer to. What I'm saying is very simple - look at the claims HHR made, then look at some other details from the scriptures, and see that it is hypocritical nonsense, and a failed justification for prejudice. I should add, that if I were to personally suggest something, it would be not to revere the writings of bronze and iron age Palestinian sects.

Humanity has risen! said:

It should not become an euphemism for "people who do not want to compromise the Scriptures for the sake of modernist ideals".

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He compromises them for his modernist pleasures.

Humanity has risen! said:

Do you respect Christians, or do you only respect those to submit to such ideals, while reviling those who talk about parts of the Bible which clash with them?

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That is exactly what he is doing - respecting his preferred ideals, and ignoring those that clash with his indulgences.

Humanity has risen! said:

I have stated before that something like homosexual practice or sex outside of marriage is not compatible with the Scriptures. Even though there is much social pressure to say otherwise, I do not want to yield to such pressure and turn the Word of God into a lie because we are commanded not to yield. It is simply a matter of integrity and a desire for righteousness.

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His luxury spending is not compatible with the scriptures either.

FretRider said:

The guy you are replying to was just being obtuse and anti-Catholic. Protestants had brutal inquisitions and religious wars too and they were all about "just me and my bibul". Not to mention they genocided native americans while the Catholics bothered to convert them and save their souls;

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I didnt even mention the catholics, but since you mentioned it... Only the priests were allowed to read the bible and only in latin. As for protestants and their inquisitions and wars, i would argue they knew what they were doing was wrong and they still did out of greed. As for the forced conversions of the natives, I dont think that was right either.

Humanity has risen! said:

Actually it is not true.

Slavery as per biblical standards is very misunderstood. In the old testament and for the Jews, slavery basically existed because there was nothing like social assistance and the needy had nothing to sell but themselves to be provided for. After a while the slaves could become free too.

In the New Testament slavery is not justified in the letter of St Peter and St Paul. Some people say that they do, but what they are really saying is that slaves should keep a dignified and mature attitude even though they are kept in a servile position.

Also in the New Testament there is the story of St Paul encountering in prison a slave who has been converted to Christianity. He writes to his master telling him to welcome him back not as a slave but as a brother in Christ.

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It is not about slavery. It is about abolition of slavery.
There is nothing in the Bible to justify the abolition of slavery. Nothing. Anytime somebody has made a point, proclaiming that an abolition of slavery was, is a christian thing commanded by the Bible, it is not.
You can read the Bible as much as you want, backwards, crosswards, upside down, not read it, there is nothing in the Bible to call for an abolition of slavery.

This point was made relatively to the comment claiming that crusaders, the Inquisition were misguided Christian or even not Christian.
Which is wrong. They were Christian who found their justification in the Bible because in the Bible, you can find justification for the Crusades, the Inquistion. They made nothing up. They served the christian god as the words told them to.

In a nutshell, crusaders, inquisition: Christians who were true to the words of the bible and not misguided.
Abolitionist "christian" people who claimed that abolishing slavery was a christian thing: unjustified by the bible, misguided, misguiding people etc, peole who perverted the message of the bible and betrayed the christian god.

Corwin said:

Just to correct one point about the Bible and slavery; if you read carefully you will note the year of Jubilee (which came around regularly every 50 years) mandated that all slaves were to be freed!!

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This only addresses slaves that were jewish. Not the others.

Damian said:

I didnt even mention the catholics, but since you mentioned it… Only the priests were allowed to read the bible and only in latin. As for protestants and their inquisitions and wars, i would argue they knew what they were doing was wrong and they still did out of greed. As for the forced conversions of the natives, I dont think that was right either.

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Nope, there was no such prohibition. That is an anti-Catholic myth born out of ignorance. If you go to European museums you will often see beautifully illuminated Bibles belongings to Kings, Dukes and Counts, for instance.

What did happen was that Books in general took years for a scribe to manually produce and were really expensive and treasured(specially large ones such as the Bible), and were usually only acessible to clergy and nobility. Some Churches kept them under lock and chain for fear of robbery, that is where the myth might have originated.

There was also off course the fact that very few people bothered to have an education during medieval times. Scholarship and the study of Latin was considered good only for monks, priests and the occasional nun. That would off course begin to change during the high middle-ages with the advent off universities, and there were indeed severla lay authors who obviously read the Bible during the period between 10th-15th centuries.

But yeah, you basically just spouted the typical bullshit medieval myth. I find it a shame that few people bother to know the basics about medieval history.

And yes, the Catholic Church enforced the use of the Latin Vulgate as the sole version of scripture until after the protestant reformation. Considering that most translations of the Bible now read are utter and complete shit I find myself agreeing with this practice and lament the fact that Martin Luther began a trend with his own shitty and heretical translation of scripture that was mass printed in the 16th century.

Ripper said:

No, you didn't read or understand what I wrote:


He is the one talking about adhering to the word of the scriptures, and that is what I refer to. What I'm saying is very simple - look at the claims HHR made, then look at some other details from the scriptures, and see that it is hypocritical nonsense, and a failed justification for prejudice. I should add, that if I were to personally suggest something, it would be not to revere the writings of bronze and iron age Palestinian sects.


He compromises them for his modernist pleasures.

That is exactly what he is doing - respecting his preferred ideals, and ignoring those that clash with his indulgences.

His luxury spending is not compatible with the scriptures either.

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"Luxury spending" for buying games and supporting the work of those who develop them? He is a Catholic layman, not a Franciscan friar. That is also marxist rhetoric, Christians don't believe in nonsense such as "wealth distribution". We believe in charity, which is something completely different.

You are just trying too hard to troll HHR, I assume that is why he doesn't even reply to you anymore. As a former effective troll I must say you are quite limited and an utter failure at this.

FretRider said:

"Luxury spending" for buying games and supporting the work of those who develop them?

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No. For buying $1000 headphones and luxury watches.

FretRider said:

He is a Catholic layman, not a Franciscan friar.

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Exactly - my point again. He does not hold himself to the highest standard of the scriptures, as most Christians don't, but as Franciscan monks do. But he does attempt to hold others to such rigid standards, when it suits his agenda.

FretRider said:

That is also marxist rhetoric

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No, you seem to be confusing Karl Marx with direct quotes from the Bible.

FretRider said:

You are just trying too hard to troll HHR, I assume that is why he doesn't even reply to you anymore. As a former effective troll I must say you are quite limited and an utter failure at this.

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No, I'm not trolling anybody. I'm exposing and discrediting you, HHR, and your bishop, because what you are all doing is appalling to moral human beings. If HHR is no longer replying, I suspect it is because he knows his goose is cooked, and it is a better strategy to allow his "counterpart", the professional troll and trolling consultant, to attempt to derail the conversation.

There's not much more I can do here that you haven't already done to yourselves. I forgot to add you to the ignore list - I'll sort that out now.

Ripper said:

No, I'm not trolling anybody. I'm exposing and discrediting you, HHR, and your bishop, because what you are all doing is appalling to moral human beings.

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I see… and what do we do that is so "appalling"? Besides not being an enlightened secular humanist who knows the solution to all the world's problems such as yourself? HHR is a family man and I am a college student.

As for the good Bishop, I fail to see what great evil he has done. Reading the Leuchter report and believing that nazis didn't use gas chambers doesn't make him out to be Darth Vader, you know?

Now, demonizing people who don't agree with your point of view… that is real despicable.

Ripper said:

No, you seem to be confusing Karl Marx with direct quotes from the Bible.

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Sadly I don't remember Christ building gulags and stealing from the rich and the middle-class.

Ripper said:

I forgot to add you to the ignore list - I'll sort that out now.

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How tragic. Do cover your ears on the way out, you poor thing.

I'm starting to really like this Pope:

http://www.today.com/pets/pope-francis-says-all-dogs-do-go-heaven-1D80365698

During his weekly address in the Vatican on Wednesday, Pope Francis was consoling a little boy who had recently lost his dog, assuring the boy that he and his furry friend would reunite in heaven.

“One day, we will see our animals again in the eternity of Christ. Paradise is open to all of God’s creatures,” the pontiff said, according to Italian news sources.

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I never had any doubt of this, but it is nice to see the head of the largest Christian faith finally come around!

ohh and:

blatantninja said:

I'm starting to really like this Pope:

http://www.today.com/pets/pope-francis-says-all-dogs-do-go-heaven-1D80365698



I never had any doubt of this, but it is nice to see the head of the largest Christian faith finally come around!

ohh and:

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I was coming to this thread to post this.

He is just a sad pope at this point. This isn't an American Idol contest.

FretRider said:

"Luxury spending" for buying games and supporting the work of those who develop them? He is a Catholic layman, not a Franciscan friar. That is also marxist rhetoric, Christians don't believe in nonsense such as "wealth distribution". We believe in charity, which is something completely different.

You are just trying too hard to troll HHR, I assume that is why he doesn't even reply to you anymore. As a former effective troll I must say you are quite limited and an utter failure at this.

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No, I didn't reply because I played Dead State, was busy with my family and with work, and only had a smartphone when I had the time.

I do not resent him in any way in his fervor, I think he is just misguided. I wasn't surprised when he stated he came from academia, this is where people acquire such beliefs. I started praying for him when I saw him state he was an atheist a while ago, as I do for some other Watchers and for many Codexers every day.

Ripper said:

No. For buying $1000 headphones and luxury watches.


Exactly - my point again. He does not hold himself to the highest standard of the scriptures, as most Christians don't, but as Franciscan monks do. But he does attempt to hold others to such rigid standards, when it suits his agenda.

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First off I never said I was a saintly figure, I'm a sinner like anyone else. But I do sincerely attempt to hold myself to very high standards and to incite others to do it as well and not to misrepresent the gospel.

I really think you're greatly exaggerating in saying that because I like to buy a few products that are of great quality and craftmanship it means I have fallen prey to a form of idolatry. I don't forget that the danger is always there, but if anything if it means they last me for decades or for many years and I don't have to change them it's not so wasteful. I will be able to use my Omega watch for decades to come whereas a cheap Timex would continuously break and need to be replaced. So no I'm not living like a monk and I suppose I am a product of this very materialistic culture and enjoy contemporary hobbies which I enjoyed for a very long time, but I really think you are grasping at straws here, in essence just because I don't like cheap made in China trash. I pay my taxes, I save a lot of money, I take care of my family and I try to live an honest life.

I even posted pictures of snow which I took while I was working in Quebec City a few weeks ago so I am an authentic Quebecer and absolutely am not Fretrider, although I find it silly and funny that you seem to believe it.