green vehicle thread

I like the Honda Civic Hybrid. Won some first spots on "eco" lists here in europe, too.

GothicGothicness said:

I am sorry to say that there is not really such a thing as a green car.
PJ is right when he says the lowest consuming diesel car is the best choice, or in some ways even the lowest consuming one that goes on gas. Except in Brazil!

Confused yet? In Brazil they have a lot of etanol cars, there are driven by etanol produce from sugar canes, which produces the least amount of CO2 pollution of the method we know of so far. In use Etanol is produced by corn, which is a energy hungry process, that acctually realese more CO2 compared to driving with gas!

If you have an electric car, a lot of this electricity is still produced by coal or oil burning in a powerplant, which also causes a lot of CO2 being sent out into the environment, however if the electric cars could become much more effective this alternative could also be an alternative! Or even better if we could produce the largest part of our electrictiy from solar power! Which the researcher thinks will be the solution to our problems in the future!

To sum up, to be truly environmental friendly DON't use a car! take the bike, it also make you much more healthy! If you are too old or weak to use it, try public transportation it is still much better than a car!

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By the gods it's good to hear the voice of reason from others. As you said in another post in this thread, it's imperative that we refine photovoltaics. Not just the manufacture of photo processing gear but also our ability to store and release the charge efficiently. It is our single best bet for 'renewable energy' that, to our knowledge, has the least impact on our environment sans a breakthrough in physics that enables us to harness gravity ala a portable singularity.

When I go back to school, this is exactly what I'll be studying. I can't wait.

StackSmasher said:

Not just the manufacture of photo processing gear but also our ability to store and release the charge efficiently.

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You put your finger on it.

Here's a business idea that's guaranteed to make you rich -- free for anyone reading to grab it, 'cuz I'm too lazy.

Find a supplier for batteries, and sell them, bundled with those $1/W solar panels, in Lebanon.

Why? Because the electricity grid in Lebanon sucks, and people are currently using diesel generators to fill in the gap. They're noisy, stinky, high-maintenance, and the fuel costs money. As does that unreliable electricity, unless you're a Shi'ite in which case you get it for free. OTOH there's plenty of sunshine, and a lot of people with free roofs to put the panels and enough money to pay for them.

IOW, solar panels combined with batteries that'll slash your electricity bills, keep your lights on when the mains power goes out, and do it silently and with no fuel costs should be a very easy sell. The good conscience that comes from slashing carbon emissions comes at no extra cost.

Good example.

Don't forget, though, our battery tech sucks. We need to improve our storage technology by orders of magnitude. There is no argument here.

Money? WTF? I'm ranting, but not at you Prime Junta. Money and science should have only one relationship: money funds our research and development. I wish great minds could collaborate without political interferences or financial undercurrents.

Edit: Bah, please excuse me, I get pretty opinionated when science and environmentalism are concerned. As a German/American Indian mutt, I tend to have a skewed viewpoint on such matters.

When I go back to school, this is exactly what I'll be studying. I can't wait.

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What's your subject??

also our ability to store and release the charge efficiently

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Yes, it is another big problem about solar power, that I didn't mention yet, and a huge problem with the electric car too. Especially in countries like Sweden, if we were to go by solar power, we'll have a big problem during winter, since there is hardly any sun, on the other hand we could store up during summer when we have 24 hours of sun. If the nanosolars that PJ posted will work out really well in practice I hope a lot of reseash will be put into storing this energy in a very good way.

Nasa has also built an airplane that flies by solar power.... it sounds really dangerous!! ooops weatherforecast is wrong... no sun for this day... Houston we are going down but would be ineteresting to build one with nanosolar technology anyway, if we had truly great battery solutions, we could use this airplanes on lines like from Africa or middle easy where there are ussually a lot of sun, and they could charge up there.. fly to the dark destination, and back again to charge.

GothicGothicness said:

Nasa has also built an airplane that flies by solar power.... it sounds really dangerous!! ooops weatherforecast is wrong... no sun for this day... Houston we are going down but would be ineteresting to build one with nanosolar technology anyway, if we had truly great battery solutions, we could use this airplanes on lines like from Africa or middle easy where there are ussually a lot of sun, and they could charge up there.. fly to the dark destination, and back again to charge.

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Sunshine wouldn't be a problem, since they'd be flying above the clouds.

However, I doubt we'll be seeing solar-powered airliners any time soon. The limiting factor is the power to weight/surface area ratio (in which the Nanosolar panels are no better than average), and you also need a lot more power to get the plane off the ground. To get these kinds of energy densities, I think we'll be needing chemical fuels into the foreseeable future.

The point with solar-powered planes is endurance -- once you get one up there, it'll stay up there until it breaks. That means they're good for, for example, survey purposes.

What would an eco-plane be like, then?

For long hauls, we'll still need jet engines -- prop-driven aircraft are just too slow. That means burning something. That something could be biofuel or hydrogen. Current jet engines wouldn't need huge modifications for either purpose; the safety of hydrogen fuel could be a problem though. So all you have to do is produce the fuel in a sustainable manner, and you're golden.

For short trips, an electric system could work. We could have a fuel cell burning hydrogen or a hydrogen derivative, powering electric motors that turn the props. Or if there's a really huge leap in battery technology, replace the fuel cell with the battery.

Sunshine wouldn't be a problem, since they'd be flying above the clouds.

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It'd still be, if the airplane is supposed to charge while it is on the ground to get enough energy stored for its next trip. At least from a security perspective it would be ok, as long as you plan for the part of the trip that do go below the clouds, which on a shorter trip ( which they'd probably be used for ) is quite large, I'd say 10-20 minutes on both landing and going up.

Also there can be storms or other things, to prevent it from landing, and when the night comes by, there will be no more solar power. So you'll have to have a lot of margins.

At the very least I hope they can make some hybrids though, that also has normal fuel, in case there is different kind of problems! They could consume less than a completely fuel drive airplane.

GothicGothicness said:

It'd still be, if the airplane is supposed to charge while it is on the ground to get enough energy stored for its next trip.

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Why not just plug it in a wall outlet, like electric cars?

Also there can be storms or other things, to prevent it from landing, and when the night comes by, there will be no more solar power. So you'll have to have a lot of margins.

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Is there any reason storms would affect them more than regular aircraft? And again, why not charge them up from the electricity grid?

At the very least I hope they can make some hybrids though, that also has normal fuel, in case there is different kind of problems! They could consume less than a completely fuel drive airplane.

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And, again, this wouldn't work well for planes, since a hybrid system means you're transporting multiple power sources and engines, which means more weight. With aircraft, the challenge is power to weight ratio.

So I really don't think there are commercial solar-powered planes in our future; there are better ways to get a zero-emissions plane.

GothicGothicness said:

What's your subject??

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I have two years finished toward my EE. I'm going to finish that up via night school and research where to do my graduate work in the meantime.

Why not just plug it in a wall outlet, like electric cars?

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And have solar power on the airterminal too? and if there is not enough power we can use regular power sources. Sure, just thought it'd be neat to be able to land them much more freely, have them charge up by themselves and fly on... just the way we'd like with an electric car!

Is there any reason storms would affect them more than regular aircraft?

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I mean it has to come down, and if it can't land it needs to circle, if it is bad weather and it is under the clouds it'll be without power. The kind of solar power aircraft I imagine is kind of too advanced for right now though!

And, again, this wouldn't work well for planes, since a hybrid system means you're transporting multiple power sources and engines

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Yes, but if we can have effective solar power and battery, I thought it can be possible to keep it hovering above the clouds by the solar power, and use other fuel for take off and landing ( and emergency ) it'll require some better engine technology, but it could also save weight on the fuel it needs to hold. Again needs better solar cells....

GothicGothicness said:

And have solar power on the airterminal too? and if there is not enough power we can use regular power sources. Sure, just thought it'd be neat to be able to land them much more freely, have them charge up by themselves and fly on... just the way we'd like with an electric car!

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More or less. We already know how to produce electricity for the grid sustainably; the only problem is money and installed base. It's certainly easier than producing a solar-powered airliner, which is (I believe) beyond the reach of current technology. OTOH a hydrogen-powered airliner is perfectly feasible, and if we can produce electricity sustainably, we can produce hydrogen sustainably.

It's certainly easier than producing a solar-powered airliner, which is (I believe) beyond the reach of current technology.

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Yes you are right for sure, the one nasa built is really slow, and low weight, but it is ideal for research missions. An interesting read here: http://www.nasa.gov/centers/dryden/news/FactSheets/FS-034-DFRC.html

With those numbers, it should be able to stay up there indefinitely. A glide ratio of 1:21 at a speed of 15 mph would mean that it would lose about 45,000 feet over 12 hours. The kinds of clouds that block the sun don't usually go over 10,000 feet or so (other than storm clouds), so as long as it was above 55,000 feet in the evening it'd be able to climb right back up in the morning, without even having to use any battery power. Cool!