Fallout 4 - Base Customization @ Gamespot

Archangel said:

FPS combat is dumbed down, it depends on reflexes and not on thinking.

Click to expand...

Pro players might tell otherwise. In these days, it is not surprising pro players are looking for drugs, and they are looking for drugs to enhance their decision making.

ChienAboyeur said:

Pro players might tell otherwise. In these days, it is not surprising pro players are looking for drugs, and they are looking for drugs to enhance their decision making.

Click to expand...

Pro players use even less thinking but practiced movements that became reflex. Don't talk about stuff you obviously don't understand.

And pro players are not a topic of this conversation. The play they usually do is very different than what normal players can do. Also there is no pro players in Fallout games.
I did say that Fallout 3 and FNV is even less interesting than FPS MP games that take actual skill to win.

ChienAboyeur said:

Pro players might tell otherwise. In these days, it is not surprising pro players are looking for drugs, and they are looking for drugs to enhance their decision making.

Click to expand...

This time I have to say that you really have no idea what you are talking about Chien. Our brain works relatively slowly and pro players train and practise to obtain "muscle memory" for the very reason so that they don't have to waste time on decisions and are able just to react. I'm not saying that those players aren't skilled but that it's a different set of skills.
Drugs used by some video game pro players don't enhance decision making but concentration and reflexes.

Archangel said:

Pro players use even less thinking but practiced movements that became reflex. Don't talk about stuff you obviously don't understand.

Click to expand...

And in which professionally played video stuff does it work?
When thinking of practice that could be resumed to muscle memory only, a few speed run games might fit the depiction and yet, I know no player who speed run as a professional player.
By far, the other professionally played games cant be sumed to muscle memory.

And pro players are not a topic of this conversation. The play they usually do is very different than what normal players can do. Also there is no pro players in Fallout games.
I did say that Fallout 3 and FNV is even less interesting than FPS MP games that take actual skill to win.

Click to expand...

The quotation is that:

Originally Posted by Archangel View Post
FPS combat is dumbed down, it depends on reflexes and not on thinking.

Click to expand...

Of course, taking a look at the way professional players who push the requirements to the limits give a picture.

And pro players involved in FPS take smart drugs in order to improve the decision making, the reading of the play, the adaptation of the strat etc

Beside, another mischaracterization is to sum different play styles to reflexes. They are many ways of playing that are not based on reflexes.

Concentration tells nothing of the requirements of the task, concentration tells that one is going to be applied to the task.

Saying same stuff over and over does not make them the truth. Sorry but those drugs just don't do that. They improve reflexes.
That is very different than making moves in something like chess.

Archangel said:

Saying same stuff over and over does not make them the truth. Sorry but those drugs just don't do that. They improve reflexes.
That is very different than making moves in something like chess.

Click to expand...

This is not my debate anymore but I just have to add something: playing turn-based tactical games is also nothing like chess. It does require your attention, it does require some degree of intelligence, it does require planning to antecipate the adversarie's moves, but it's nothing like chess.... Nor should it be, because role playing is NOT chess, it has nothing to do with chess and never will.
Role playing, in it's original form (i.e. P&P) doesn't even require much of your IQ - much more of your EQ. It does require creativity, it can (or, in my interpretation of RPG, it certainly should) require interpretative skills, social skills, it requires a lot of preparation on the part of the GM (and it should also require some preparation on the part of the gamers), it requires understanding of what everybody wants from the game.
…But all this is hell to translate to a computer game, so translating the rules bit was much easier, even more in the earlier days of videogames. The rules and the tactical component that some P&P games still retain (the unfortunate case of D&D). Nowadays (and I'm not even talking about Bethesda's games) some videogames have achieved a degree of similitude to what happens in an average P&P game session composed of mature people engaged in a non-tactical campaign, more inclined for dialogue with NPCs, intrigue, "political" (lato sensu) maneuvers and such. And most of the games that can be a simulacra of the kind of the type of game sessions I described here are not even labeled as cRPGs, they are inovative adventure games or edgy experiments without a proper label.

Archangel said:

Saying same stuff over and over does not make them the truth. Sorry but those drugs just don't do that. They improve reflexes.
That is very different than making moves in something like chess.

Click to expand...

So smart drugs aka cognitive enhancers do not improve cognitive faculties.

Indeed, saying it does not make it true. What makes it true is that pro players take those drugs in that effect.

Good job on the pass over the list of pro played games that should lead to support the statement that pro play is just a matter of muscle memory, reflexes.

Great mechanics aka muscle memory only take you that far in pro played games (including Starcraft one that is greedy in terms of micro)
Decision making matter so much that FPS pro players look for smart drugs to enhance it.

The primarily drug used in e-sports is Adderall. Adderall does not improve decision making, at least not directly. In fact if it's abused it can easily impair it. What Adderall does do is improve your energy, attention, and focus. Despite things like this sometimes being called "smart drugs", they do not actually make you smarter or in any way improve your cognitive abilities. But they can help you focus and pay attention, which is useful if your trying to study something difficult in a book, or if your trying to react to something more quickly.

If your paying close attention to things, then you might remember more details, which can indirectly help in decision making. But focus also helps you react to things much faster, which I think is the primary benefit. Which isn't to say that I think there is no thought involved in real times games, overall I agree that muscle memory is only part of the equation (albeit a big part).

Decision making is made against a referential framework, being able to collect data is essential.

Actually, things are more anticipated than reacted in a pro played game. Players who are left to react are already one step behind.

Reaction time is just a general term that refers to how long it takes you to do something like press the fire button or move to the left. It's extremely important in real time games whether you anticipate something or not.

Considering the standards on this site, playing semantics only end going round and round.
Socalled RPGs are better time fillers than this stuff.
Already, with this semantic twist afoot, it is hard to distinguish between action time and reaction time, which in the end undermines the requirement to anticipate (since the benefit of anticipation is that it puts a player in the action department, not reaction department)

On a primary note, actually, one guy involved in Fall Out 4 reported 400 hours in game and still discovering new things.

That stuff should be head news. It is not.