Walmart Means Low Morals

In the end, capitalism is just this: I (as a manager or other head of a company) let people work for e and thus increase my income. It's a masked form of slavery, masked by taxes and wages.

Whoa, cool! That was as pure Marx as I've ever seen. Great to see we have someone here who's thinking straight. :D

Lidl has been in Scandinavia for quite some time. One opened just on my way to work not too long ago. The interesting thing is that it's not really in direct competition with the big Finnish chain stores -- instead, it's more like a German/Central European delicatessen, only cheap. Last time I went, I bought two bags of Müsli (it's the best in town), some Czech beer, some of their very nice chocolate, and some excellent Spanish cured ham -- all of which are available there for a good deal less than at competing Finnish stores.

But they don't have the things I want for my regular shopping, so I do that either at the regular Finnish chain stores or, on weekends when I have the time and inclination, at the market just next door. I really enjoy shopping there; the products are superb and the shopkeepers know me -- but it's not really an option for daily shopping, because the hours are inconvenient, it takes time, and it would get rather expensive fast.
 
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The way I parse that is that you've identified one structural problem -- the short attention span of your political system.
Not really, although it might be terminology. I would call the attention span thing an organizational problem. I would call things like the national debt and tort reform structural problems.
What I've been sayin' is that America won't fix itself until the electorate wakes up and demands more of its government than feel-good talk -- whether the talk is boo-yah patriotism or mantras about "change" is less important. Longer-term thinking is a part of it. That means a cultural shift.
I think we've both been saying that. Our difference is that I think Americans like that smoke up our butts a little too much to manage that cultural shift until it's too late.
What you, dte, need is a bigger sense of perspective: you're only comparing America now to America as it was and, perhaps, an idealized America that never could be... and perhaps also some of its peers, and realizing that some of them are actually doing better than America.
Guilty as charged. I would point out, though, that a global perspective isn't terribly valuable for a unique situation. The problems in the US are historically unique, if only for their magnitude. I would say the closest historical parallel is Classic Rome. If you'll grant me that "the world was quite a bit smaller back then" (in other words, largely ignore Asian civilization of the time and focus on Europe) and perhaps a bit of American arrogance, I would say the parallel holds up pretty well. Dominant military power, dominant economy of the world, nearly all-encompassing sphere of influence, decadent consumer populace, cultural and technological leadership, marked internal division of wealth and power (citizens versus slaves), well-developed national arrogance. Seems like a fairly good fit, and that one didn't end so well, did it.
 
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The big difference is that USA doesn't have multitude of barbarians snapping at your borders. Even if some are considering Hispanics as a sort of a modern equivalent of Vandals, there is no threat of a sack of Washington.
 
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Wouldn't you say al-Qaeda might qualify? They did, in fact, attack Washington.
 
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Comparing the US to Rome is 'old hat'. We did that back when I was in school. I remember comparing the Kennedys to the Grachii. It's still fairly accurate and I also agree with Dte, that there's plenty of barbarians out there who love to tear it all down!!
 
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Wouldn't you say al-Qaeda might qualify? They did, in fact, attack Washington.

Are you serious?

Al Qaeda in America has, thus far, knocked down two buildings and damaged a third.

Barbarian invaders were regularly running rampant over the Roman heartlands, sacking the capital, and putting its inhabitants to the sword.

On that scale, Al Qaeda doesn't even register.
 
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, I would say the parallel holds up pretty well. Dominant military power, dominant economy of the world, nearly all-encompassing sphere of influence, decadent consumer populace, cultural and technological leadership, marked internal division of wealth and power (citizens versus slaves), well-developed national arrogance. Seems like a fairly good fit, and that one didn't end so well, did it.

Guys in togas, perhaps but with the possible exception of the 'decadent consumer populance the description you've given there fits the late British Empire pretty well.

(so watch out for your ostensible major ally in the next world war ;) )
 
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Not really, although it might be terminology. I would call the attention span thing an organizational problem. I would call things like the national debt and tort reform structural problems.

Yup, that's a valid use of the terminology as well.

Guilty as charged. I would point out, though, that a global perspective isn't terribly valuable for a unique situation. The problems in the US are historically unique, if only for their magnitude. I would say the closest historical parallel is Classic Rome. If you'll grant me that "the world was quite a bit smaller back then" (in other words, largely ignore Asian civilization of the time and focus on Europe) and perhaps a bit of American arrogance, I would say the parallel holds up pretty well. Dominant military power, dominant economy of the world, nearly all-encompassing sphere of influence, decadent consumer populace, cultural and technological leadership, marked internal division of wealth and power (citizens versus slaves), well-developed national arrogance. Seems like a fairly good fit, and that one didn't end so well, did it.

I really hate that parallel -- it's facile, emotionally laden, grandiose, and very misleading. The similarities are superficial or trivial, while the differences are structural. Specifically:

* Your laundry list fits just about any great power in decline, not just Rome. Britain pre-WW2, France pre-Revolution, the Seleucid empire before Mithradates II, the Khalifate before the Turks, you name it.
* Not all of those declines ended in collapse. Rome, for example, reformed itself on multiple occasions before they finally went down. Consider Marius and Sulla, the Punic wars, the civil wars and the end of the Republic with the subsequent rise of the Empire, and, if you will, the little detail that Eastern Rome picked up the pieces after the Dark Ages and continued merrily for another millennium as Byzantium -- even as it abandoned the ecologically, economically, and demographically ruined Western parts of the empire.
* The time scale is all wrong. American ascendancy has lasted for barely three-quarters of a century; Roman ascendancy lasted 500 years (or more, depending on how you look at it).

And most importantly, the Rome parallel says nothing particularly meaningful about the causes of the decline, nor about what could be done to reverse it -- that is, nothing more meaningful than most other, similar periods of history. Specifically, the causes of the collapse of Western Rome are in many very important respects completely unlike the causes of the American decline:

* The population movements that put constant barbarian pressure on the empire. (No, Mexicans or Al Qaeda don't count. Really.)
* The top-to-bottom militarization of society. The only way to make a career in late Rome was through the legions -- and the only way to get to power was at the point of the gladius. If you want to look for parallels, political life in late Rome looked a lot like political life in any of the tin-pot little countries with a coup or two every year.
* Ecological destruction. By late antiquity, Rome had barbered off pretty much all the forests usable for construction and shipbuilding that it could reach; fields were over-farmed and crops were failing regularly. (And no, the loss of a part of the American industrial base overseas doesn't count.)
* Geography. Rome was bang in the middle of everything, which was both a source of its power (Italy is a great base to expand from) and a source of its downfall (no matter how far they expanded, they had hostiles just over the border).

There are much more meaningful parallels around, if you're interested in looking for them. Most of them just aren't as sexy as Rome. Some of them are even around now -- the American scale isn't as unique in the world as you appear to think.
 
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1- There can be no doubt that, while fall of Roman Empire was due to internal as much as external factors, US current troubles are overwhelmingly internal.

2- Nobody seems to be able to build Empires like they did in olden days :) While Roman, Byzantine or Ottoman Empires lasted for many centuries, Spanish Empire lasted only for something like 200 years. Brits managed it for a little over a century and French 1st and 2nd Empires lasted about 40 years alltogether.
 
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French ascendancy lasted longer than that, though -- Louis XIV was something of a high point, and France very much dominated the continent at that time.
 
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It's obvious to me that the Walmarts found a genie in a bottle, somewhere, and made a wish. That they didn't wish for world peace or to feed the hungry everywhere proves beyond a doubt that they do, in fact, have low morals.
 
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