Health Care Politics Thread

I actually preferred Lou to John, but while this discussion is fascinating, could we at least pretend to keep on topic once in a while!! :)
 
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dteowner said:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090802/ap_on_go_co/us_health_care_fact_check
Looks like both sides are lying to us. Can't say I'm surprised. Do we really want to get government involved when none of them will tell us the truth? Choke them down to minimize the damage, me thinks.
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It seems you have demands on those involved. Demands such as telling the truth.
Maybe you realize that you can make demands on a government elected by you, but you cannot make demands elsewhere. So the question is if making demands important to you or not. The best thing with having the government involved is precisely that you can make demands. Democracy is power to the people, choke the democratic state and the people's power go down, including yours.
 
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The problem with that, JemyM, is that our government reflects our populace far too well--spending money that they don't have on stupid stuff they don't need, all the while ignoring the big picture in favor of short-sighted gratification, wrapped up with a bow of complete denial of personal responsibility.

The empire grows fat and decadent. It's not practical (nor necessarily wise) to overthrow it, so the best alternative is to limit the damage it can do.
 
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dteowner said:
The problem with that, JemyM, is that our government reflects our populace far too well--spending money that they don't have on stupid stuff they don't need, all the while ignoring the big picture in favor of short-sighted gratification, wrapped up with a bow of complete denial of personal responsibility.

The empire grows fat and decadent. It's not practical (nor necessarily wise) to overthrow it, so the best alternative is to limit the damage it can do.
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What about the non-government. That's made up by people too.
 
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By "non-government", I thnk you're referring to the private sector? If so, then I'd highlight the key difference. Democracy is ultimately based on popularity. There's no requirement for technical competence, and continued success is achieved thru greater popularity. The private sector requires competence and responsiveness to the customer, and continued success is achieved thru greater competence. Big difference, that.
 
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dteowner said:
By "non-government", I thnk you're referring to the private sector? If so, then I'd highlight the key difference. Democracy is ultimately based on popularity. There's no requirement for technical competence, and continued success is achieved thru greater popularity. The private sector requires competence and responsiveness to the customer, and continued success is achieved thru greater competence. Big difference, that.
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In any larger corporation, there is also loads of 'connection-based advancement' ... nothing to do with competence.
 
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Right, but that's advancement within the corporation itself, txa. Getting elected and running the government is purely based off of popularity. Everyone can hate the hell out of Microsoft for being jerks, but they've been very competent and successful in monopolizing certain sectors of the computer industry.

I doubt there are many corporations which do a horrible job of things and survive on popularity alone (except those backed by the gov't). Could be wrong, though, and I'm sure you business-y types can probably show me some examples if there are any.
 
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Popularity? Hardly. But there are plenty of corporations who have prospered for very long periods through extremely questionable methods.
 
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Sending the kneecappers out to bust the union is a form of competence. Not a nice one, nor one we should allow, but it's a viable solution to an efficiency problem until someone changes the parameters.
 
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What about sending the kneecappers out to bust any emerging competitors?
 
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For actual kneecappers, same answer. From a more broad view (generic monopolistic actions), same answer with the caveat that "one we should allow" becomes tremendously more complex.
 
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How is this different from a politician's competence at winning elections?
 
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It's not, but that's talking different end results. Popularity is no measure of ability to run a nation, any more than "noble birth" was. While the two are not mutually exclusive, actions that gain popularity (such as free healthcare for everyone) do not automatically equal actions that are structural sound (such as balanced budget). I believe you've called them perverse incentives.

Even if we dig into skillful delegation, the parameters are different. The competent politician will surround himself with subordinates that enhance his popularity. In some cases, that means folks skilled in "nuts-n-bolts", but it can also mean Sarah Palin. The competent businessman will surround himself with subordinates that enhance his business acumen--"nuts-n-bolts" types.
 
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dteowner said:
By "non-government", I thnk you're referring to the private sector? If so, then I'd highlight the key difference. Democracy is ultimately based on popularity. There's no requirement for technical competence, and continued success is achieved thru greater popularity. The private sector requires competence and responsiveness to the customer, and continued success is achieved thru greater competence. Big difference, that.
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The market is also built on popularity. How popularity is gained is based on the customer. Alternative medicine is entirely made up of selling bs rather than competence which works just fine.
 
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They call that "advertising" I think. One of my nuggets of wisdom to pass along as a tribal elder is the more an advertisement claims something, the more you should believe the exact opposite.

@dte: You beat me to posting that Yahoo article. I was going to point out the evil Republican 'Kill Granny' spin. ;) But there's vaulting politico-speak bs on both sides, I agree. Still, as a good socialist, I think something might come out of the current sausage-making that will actually help people if it can survive the partial-birth abortion process going on.
 
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dteowner said:
It's not, but that's talking different end results. Popularity is no measure of ability to run a nation, any more than "noble birth" was. While the two are not mutually exclusive, actions that gain popularity (such as free healthcare for everyone) do not automatically equal actions that are structural sound (such as balanced budget). I believe you've called them perverse incentives.
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True, dat. As Churchill put it, democracy is the worst political system, except for all the others.

Or as I put it, democracy is a lousy way to find competent leaders, but it's the best we have to fire incompetent ones.

Even if we dig into skillful delegation, the parameters are different. The competent politician will surround himself with subordinates that enhance his popularity. In some cases, that means folks skilled in "nuts-n-bolts", but it can also mean Sarah Palin. The competent businessman will surround himself with subordinates that enhance his business acumen--"nuts-n-bolts" types.
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Like, um, quants, for example?
 
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JemyM said:
The market is also built on popularity. How popularity is gained is based on the customer. Alternative medicine is entirely made up of selling bs rather than competence which works just fine.
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The fact that you identify alternative medicine as "selling BS" proves that mere popularity/marketing is insufficient in the long term. There's compentency in exploiting ignorance, but ultimately those companies will die because their product is crap. They fail the "nuts-n-bolts" test.
 
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dteowner said:
There's compentency in exploiting ignorance, but ultimately those companies will die because their product is crap.
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Just like political parties, and their product is systematically reexamined every four years.
 
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