Baldur's Gate inventory & XP discussion

Hi guyz!

<grabs Prime Junta's collar>

You want to discuss? We'll discuss!
:D

Compared to *that*, the occasional overpowered magic item in BG2 is chickenfeed.

Ok, you clearly don't know what you're talking about here.

Lets mention celestial fury which is attainable very early in the game. What this item does? If it hits you you're *stunned* unless you make a save vs spell! This save is pretty weak for all classes.
Now, bring on your multiclassed whatever and face my single class warrior with cf in his main hand and belm in off-hand. You won't even have time to say "hi"!








If I was a game dev, and the marketing dude asked me for a quick video showcasing group combat, what would I do? I might just snag some snazzy-looking level, use the debugger to drop in a party, hit Record, and play for a few minutes. If my party happened to be ten levels above the area level, tough titty.

Yeah right.. and that's a smart thing to do? It's not. And I guess even bioware is not that dumb to make their combat look crappier on purpose.

Point being, it is stupid to draw your kind of inferences from a few seconds of gameplay footage, when we know nothing about the context, background, or parameters related to that footage. We can see the UI, we can see what the combat animations look like, we can see that the AI apparently knows how to switch between different types of attacks, and that sort of thing.

It's not a few seconds. I have watched many DA videos and seen many DA screenshots. Including those showing character level, weapon damage, armor, defense, attack etc. etc. in various combinations.
But there's just not enough data to say anything at all about stuff like game balance, whether there are dominant strategies or not. For example, the "no AoO" thing might result in a situation where stab-and-run works great against certain opponents, but only if there's enough room to back away, which there might not be

No, you have to decide if your game is going to be twitch based or not. DA is a game that is character skill driven and not pc skill driven.

Do you really want such a cheap tactic to work agains *any* opponent at all? Fights where this opponent has no chance of retaliation? I certailny don't.



And in D&D, it's possible to have DR20+ (Stoneskin much?), and there are weapons that do 1d3 damage. *You* do the math. Just the fact that such things exist don't say a thing about how they're used.

You can't compare a spell that's dispellable and has a duration and can be taken down with physical damage - with standard armor.


It's still good practice to distinguish between reporting facts and stating your interpretation of the facts. The fact that some professional journos screw up something as basic as that doesn't give us permission to do the same.

It would be neat if you stopped being so defensive about DA's combat without knowing anything about it. I can be negative and report my opinion about it because I've actually done some research about it and know how certain things work.

One thing I'm concerned about, for example, is how effective will light weapons really be? What's the incentive for me to wear light armor?

Heavy armor? It's alpha and omega. Your stamina takes a small hit but it's not nearly as punishing as it should be. Heavy armor should give a dexterity penality for example; that would make things more even.

Light weapons? I'd like to make a dual wielding guy with two short swords or daggers. How is it viable when the dual wielding talent path is actually skewed towards full sized weapons (with the 4th and last dual w. talent giving you the ability to wield a full sized weapon in your offhand). Not to mention how weak those smaller weapons are compared to long swords considering the mechanic of armors giving damage reduction.
These are questions that bioware technical designers haven't thought about enough, I believe.

If you say so. What's your take?

From 1 to 5:

Ok at art/graphics with some ridiculosities thrown in here and there (3/4); this completely disregarding the horrible graphics of NWN.
Ok at writing and story (-3); bioware actually has some writers who are able to write "separate" correctly :p.
Bad at combat mechanics and balance (-2).
Way they interact with the community; abysmal (1).
Originality and avoiding commonplaces (2).
Since BG 1 and to an extent BG2 very bad at having a world you can actually explore without being railroaded by hand (-2).
Stupid bioware fanboys who will *always* and without exception find a few idiotic reasons as to why a certain feature that bioware has decided to include/exclude is just absolutely the right thing to do! (-1).
Biowhore forums; way below 0.
 
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Hi guyz!

<grabs Prime Junta's collar>

You want to discuss? We'll discuss!
:D

Uncle! Uncle! You win by TKO, Tan. I don't want to discuss after all. I'll just wait until November and find out by myself. :)
 
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Uncle! Uncle! You win by TKO, Tan. I don't want to discuss after all. I'll just wait until November and find out by myself. :)

<releases Prime Junta's collar>

I knew you were a nice guy and a real gentleman. :hug:

Hey, we both hope it'll be an interesting game so we can spend some time in a virtual world not thinking about anything else. :)
 
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@Tan
You would never even get to use it. The Fighter/Mage will be using Celestial Fury as well (why wouldn't he?), only he'll cast time stop as the fight is about to begin, and then massacre you before you are capable of moving.

Even if he doesn't have timestop, a Fighter/Mage has all the abilites of a Fighter, but with Spell Sequencers and Triggers trigging so many magical defences, even Celestial Fury can't harm them (especially "immunity against magical weapons" would do the trick here). He can then proceed to smack you dead with his Celestial Fury, while you are unable to A) Harm him and B) Stun him.

You can have all the overpowered items in the game. A Fighter/Mage will kill you long before you are able to use them, even if he's fighting naked. It just doesn't matter when you have such an arsenal at your disposal.

And let's not even start discussing Monks, the easiest way to be redicilously overpowered. You don't need a multiclass. You don't need items. All you need is a high level Monk.
 
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@Tan
You would never even get to use it. The Fighter/Mage will be using Celestial Fury as well (why wouldn't he?), only he'll cast time stop as the fight is about to begin, and then massacre you before you are capable of moving.

You missed the point by a margin large as Jupiter's equator.

I was talking, from the start, about PvE balance. Meaning - challenging, well balanced combat. Using celestial fury makes most combat encounters trivial since opponents are perma stunned.

Btw, who said we should fight at a level at which he has time stop? It was an argument about which is more imbalanced - his class combo or this item. For it to be tested it's obvious that he shouldn't have the overpowered item as well.
 
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Okay, I see. So, from that POV, BG2 is not unbalanced, because the game is hard enough that it's extremely difficult to solo no matter what you do -- i.e., a single extremely powerful character in the party (i.e., you, if you powergame) doesn't make a big enough difference to overall party strength that it would make the game a cakewalk.

Yeah, that makes sense.

Except, of course, that BG2 lets you powergame the entire party -- just make ALL of them kensai/mages, with perhaps one fighter/cleric to do healing duty. I haven't actually played it this way, but I'm fairly certain that that would make the game absurdly easy. That would cause you to miss out on all of the cool intra-party stuff with the NPC's, but them's the breaks, so all but the most avid powergamers would probably not do it this way.

But I think my main point stands -- AD&D 2nd Edition is a really poorly balanced game system, and BioWare is to be commended for making several entirely playable games despite the crappy base they were working with.


No, I think you're missing my point.

Sure, you *could* make an entire party of kensai/mages, but that's actually an exploit that would involve knowing how to circumvent the normal start-up procedure. More of a cheat than anything, not to mention entirely *optional*.

How does that compare to a game (ie Morrowind) where you don't have the choice to be balanced/unbalanced?
 
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No, I think you're missing my point.

Sure, you *could* make an entire party of kensai/mages, but that's actually an exploit that would involve knowing how to circumvent the normal start-up procedure. More of a cheat than anything, not to mention entirely *optional*.

We clearly have different levels of tolerance for balance issues. I have a moderately strong compulsion to find ways to exploit the system, and if a game permits such exploits, I find it hard not to use them -- just knowing they're there sort of ruins it for me.

It's the same thing with Oblivion -- lots of people said that nobody's *forcing* you to become Arena Champion at level 1, or do all the Guild quests so you're master of all guilds -- but just knowing that I *could* sort of took the fizz out of the whole thing. Lots of people clearly don't mind, though -- it's obviously individual.

How does that compare to a game (ie Morrowind) where you don't have the choice to be balanced/unbalanced?

Oh, it's nowhere near as bad as that. From what I've heard, Two Worlds is even worse. Gothic 2 can become pretty stupid towards the end as well.
 
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We clearly have different levels of tolerance for balance issues. I have a moderately strong compulsion to find ways to exploit the system, and if a game permits such exploits, I find it hard not to use them -- just knowing they're there sort of ruins it for me.

I don't feel BG2 has any real balance issues, unless you consider the nonlinear difficulty of battles to be one. (I don't). The game is obviously exploitable though...


Gothic 2 can become pretty stupid towards the end as well.

You really need to play Night of the Raven.
 
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You missed the point by a margin large as Jupiter's equator.

I was talking, from the start, about PvE balance. Meaning - challenging, well balanced combat. Using celestial fury makes most combat encounters trivial since opponents are perma stunned.

Btw, who said we should fight at a level at which he has time stop? It was an argument about which is more imbalanced - his class combo or this item. For it to be tested it's obvious that he shouldn't have the overpowered item as well.

There are quite a few encounters, especially later in the game, that are immune to the stunning effect of Celestial Fury. There are no encounters that are immune to the overpowered Fighter/Mage.

Also, like I said, he doesn't need time stop or Celestial Fury. As soon as he's got level six spells (he'll get that at level 12), he's immune to CF, and will beat any Fighter naked with a stick.

Besides, he'll get Hold Person already at the start of the game, a spell that's fairly hard to resist early on and will do the same as CF, but ranged.

At any rate - there are several very overpowered items in BG2, no doubt about it. The worst cases are probably Celestial Fury, Carsomyr +5 The Holy Avenger and Robe of Vecna. Each of these items will cause something of an unbalance for quite a while after getting them, but none as big as simply being Fighter/Mage.

Of course, my favourite character happens to be a Fighter/Mage wearing the Robe of Vecna and wielding Celestial Fury.. :D
 
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Takes a lot of effort to get, and actually has fairly low output compared to several weapons. However, it does make the best off hand weapon, since it boosts the strength of the user to 25 (highest possible) - grab an excellent main hand weapon like the Flail of Ages +5, and the damage will go through the roof.
 
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On the whole BG2 is pretty well balanced for an RPG of that size, but the reliance on equipment (which is an artefact of the stupid 2nd edition ruleset) makes for some oddities in the power curve. Immunities to beholder rays and whatnot make such a humungous step in party power that it's silly:p

Playing with a party of home-made munchkin characters take out so much NPC interaction that I pity those who play the game that way:p
 
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I almost hate talking about Baldur's Gate sometimes because it makes me want to start playing it, and I just don't have the time :). I've been really getting the itch for BG2+ToB lately...
 
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I replayed it last year, and realised that they just dont make them that long any more... Starting over is a bit of a pain though as I have to overcome a pain threshold when it comes to the 2nd edition ruleset, which I loathe... I wish the Icewind Gate project had been finished successfully.
 
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I almost hate talking about Baldur's Gate sometimes because it makes me want to start playing it, and I just don't have the time :). I've been really getting the itch for BG2+ToB lately...

So true - I'm already cursing you for the whole RtCW / MohAA thing ...

... and JemyM for Unreal 2 (fortunately I already did Unreal recently and recounted it here.)
 
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I replayed it last year, and realised that they just dont make them that long any more... Starting over is a bit of a pain though as I have to overcome a pain threshold when it comes to the 2nd edition ruleset, which I loathe... I wish the Icewind Gate project had been finished successfully.


I never mind starting over in Baldur's Gate, I actually enjoy fighting to survive during those first few levels....

What was this "Icewind Gate project" you refer to?
 
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I replay the whole BG series through BG TuTu several times per year. I still think it's an incredible series, and enjoy it greatly whenever I replay it.
 
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I replay the whole BG series through BG TuTu several times per year. I still think it's an incredible series, and enjoy it greatly whenever I replay it.

Several times per year?! As long as it takes to go through that series, I'd be sacrificing too many newer games I wouldn't have time to play.

Right now it's been about 2 years since the last time I played BG1, and almost 5 since the last time I played BG2.
 
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Because it's such a massive series, I usually fire it up during vacations, along with a few good books.
 
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I never mind starting over in Baldur's Gate, I actually enjoy fighting to survive during those first few levels....

What was this "Icewind Gate project" you refer to?

It's not the beginning as such that bothers me, but the ruleset that I hate:D It takes some time for me to be gripped enough by the rest of the game to overlook that.

Something like Tutu but using the Icewind Dale 2 engine (and 3rd edition rules), but as far as I know it only reached an alpha version where you needed to use the console to play at all. It would have been heaven for me since I like most aspects of BG2 except for the crappy 2nd edition rules.

I can imagine why it didnt get far though, unlike Tutu it would have required pretty major rebalancing as experience and whatnot work rather differently in the two rulesets...

On the whole I must say BG2 is one of few games that is greater than the sum of its parts, almost every individual aspect has been done better elsewhere, but the combination is still one heck of a game:)
 
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