Icewind Dale - Past, Present and Future @ GameBanshee

There a small crowd of regulars here at RPGWatch who come out every few weeks and declare that Never, never again will there be a game such as Baldur's Gate! Never. Inevitably there's an argument, and they have to backpedal and agree that what they really meant was that Obsidian and other AAA developers would never make such a game.

Why exactly should I care who develops the game? If an indie developer makes a great turn-based game (like Knights of the Chalice, how about Age of Decadence?), am I going to cry myself to sleep because no one from Black Isle works there?

Never is a long damned time. As far as I'm concerned, indies have picked up the torch on great old RPGs and our focus should be on what is in development there instead of debating whether or not BG3 is financially viable for Obsidian or Bioware.

I don't think there will be any game on the same artistic level. The overall quality, level of detail, etc. that's nothing you should expect from a small developer. The cancelled Broken Hourglass was the closest approach I know so far, and when I saw their screenshots it felt more like plastic town, their character portraits too flat and too clean ('though still ways beyond my personal skill, but that's not the scope). Maybe money does matter.

blatantninja said:

IIRC, that number is total since launch, but when it initially launched, it only sound around 60k or so. Its become a cult classic so to speak.

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Warners Post is from August 2003, PsT released in December 1999. I can also remember an interview with an Virgin Interactive representative (european publisher belonging to Interplays parent Titus Interactive) in german magazine PC Player. He said they were only a little bit disappointed by the figures, as they never expected to sell in the ranks of an BG. It was not a huge fail, but Icewind Dale simply sold better and cutting edge budget was directed to the TORN project.

Avantenor said:

I don't think there will be any game on the same artistic level. The overall quality, level of detail, etc. that's nothing you should expect from a small developer. The cancelled Broken Hourglass was the closest approach I know so far, and when I saw their screenshots it felt more like plastic town, their character portraits too flat and too clean ('though still ways beyond my personal skill, but that's not the scope). Maybe money does matter.

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I thought the Broken Hourglass screen shots were pretty close to the quality you saw in IE games, graphically. Not quite there, but close. The real issue with tile based games, as most indi 3-d iso games are, is that our eyes instantly detect patterns, so we notice the repetition immediately. You didn't see that kind of repitition in the IE games.

On a side note, is Broken Hourglass actually canceled at this point? Last I saw the developer had some personal issue that had stopped the development, but it was 90% done.

Warners Post is from August 2003, PsT released in December 1999. I can also remember an interview with an Virgin Interactive representative (european publisher belonging to Interplays parent Titus Interactive) in german magazine PC Player. He said they were only a little bit disappointed by the figures, as they never expected to sell in the ranks of an BG. It was not a huge fail, but Icewind Dale simply sold better and cutting edge budget was directed to the TORN project.

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That's one thing I do like about Jeff Vogel's approach to games. From his blog posts, he doesn't just look at the initial burst of sales, but the whole life cycle of sales extended over years. If more developers would look at that, rather than just trying to appease this quarter's earning (don't get me started on that market issue!), I think we'd see more games that take risks, more quality and less clones.

Avantenor said:

I don't think there will be any game on the same artistic level. The overall quality, level of detail, etc. that's nothing you should expect from a small developer.

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Black Isle had around 50 employes. There are plenty of development studios around the same size that sustain themselves with relatively niche games. Just because none of them do party-based RPGs (due to lack of talent or interest etc) doesn't mean that there will never be one. I've seen extremely niche games with great graphics, such as this adventure game.

There's nothing about the games themselves that make it impossible to create a medium budget product that is profitable for a smaller developer.

blatantninja said:

If more developers would look at that, rather than just trying to appease this quarter's earning (don't get me started on that market issue!), I think we'd see more games that take risks, more quality and less clones.

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It takes a self-funded developer to take such an approach. Hopefully, in a few years we'll have more medium sized developers that have evolved from indies growing organically instead of the current landscape which is almost completely dominated by developers that are backed or owned by publicly traded publishers.

blatantninja said:

On a side note, is Broken Hourglass actually canceled at this point? Last I saw the developer had some personal issue that had stopped the development, but it was 90% done.

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Unfortunately, jep.

TheSisko said:

Black Isle had around 50 employes. There are plenty of development studios around the same size that sustain themselves by with relatively niche games. Just because none of them do party-based RPGs (due to lack of talent in the areas needed or interest etc) doesn't mean that there will never be one. I've seen extremely niche games with great graphics, such as this adventure game.

There's nothing about the games themselves that make it impossible to a create medium budget product that is profitable for a smaller developer with the right talents.

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Then I guess it is lack of talent, interest or it simply does not fit into the business plan, e.g. because it would have to sell 100k at 40€/$.

For me, Book of Unwritten Tales isn't an Indie Game by an Indie Developer. But maybe that's my german perspective as Adventures are still strong in Germany. At that time JoWood was one of the biggest European publishers and the game got large support by german games press. It was the most selling adventure game 2009 in Germany. Already got a sequel.

€dith: My google search says it sold 30k on german market. That's above average in adventure market and also quite solid overall. Comparison: Everything above 100k units is received as a major hit, e.g. WoW add-ons.

Avantenor said:

Then I guess it is lack of talent, interest or it simply does not fit into the business plan, e.g. because it would have to sell 100k at 40€/$.

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I think it's mostly lack of talent or experience, as I find it hard to believe that a game like say, "Disciples III" or "King's Bounty" are more appealing than a well written RPG with good tactical combat. Having a good story, talented writers and interesting quests can't hurt a games appeal.

Avantenor said:

For me, Book of Unwritten Tales isn't an Indie Game by an Indie Developer. But maybe that's my german perspective as Adventures are still strong in Germany. At that time JoWood was one of the biggest European publishers and the game got large support by german games press. It was the most selling adventure game 2009 in Germany. Already got a sequel.

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I intended is an example of a small, but not indie developer that is successful by targeting a niche - in this case the German adventure game market

screeg said:

There a small crowd of regulars here at RPGWatch who come out every few weeks and declare that Never, never again will there be a game such as Baldur's Gate! Never. Inevitably there's an argument, and they have to backpedal and agree that what they really meant was that Obsidian and other AAA developers would never make such a game.

Why exactly should I care who develops the game? If an indie developer makes a great turn-based game (like Knights of the Chalice, how about Age of Decadence?), am I going to cry myself to sleep because no one from Black Isle works there?

Never is a long damned time. As far as I'm concerned, indies have picked up the torch on great old RPGs and our focus should be on what is in development there instead of debating whether or not BG3 is financially viable for Obsidian or Bioware.

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There will never, blah blah blah, Baldur's Gate 2

But it's true: Baldur's Gate 2 was gorgeous, had great music, had a lot of characters each with their own backstory/quests/unique personalities, had a TON of quests, it was one of the few games that claims to be EPIC and actually is.

I played BG2 for about 100 hours and was never let down, and as far as I remember didn't even do all the optional quests. The scope of the game is just mindblowing as far as content and artistic scope. To top it all off, it had a great sense of humor.

So Bioware made a game with over a HUNDRED hours of epic gameplay (a lot of it challenging) with a well developed and epic story to go with it; the game contained some of the most beautiful 2D artwork, still gorgeous 10+ years later; it had an amazing soundtrack, rousing and dynamic; characters with tons of personality with great voice acting and good dialogue; AND it still managed to not take itself too seriously.

RPGs since have fallen far short. I've said it before: other games have done gameplay, presentation, C & C, writing/story/characters, lore/world building, and music better on INDIVIDUAL cases. For instance: PS:T had superior writing, TOEE had a better battle system (and arguably prettier graphics), Morrowind had a more interesting game world as far as lore and asthetics, etc.

But I still think no game has put all of these together in such a satisfying way as Baldur's Gate 2. Dragon Age: Origins comes the closest and still falls a little short.

Maylander said:

From what I know, it sold fairly decent, but only over time.

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I read somewhere that Star Wars started - originally ! - the same way.

Alrik Fassbauer said:

I read somewhere that Star Wars started - originally ! - the same way.

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Yes and no. It only debuted on a few screens and really picked up speed in the second month of showing (do movies even get a second month now?), but that was the way it was done back then. Very few movies came out to mass distribution right off the bat.

Relayer said:

RPGs since have fallen far short. I've said it before: other games have done gameplay, presentation, C & C, writing/story/characters, lore/world building, and music better on INDIVIDUAL cases. For instance: PS:T had superior writing, TOEE had a better battle system (and arguably prettier graphics), Morrowind had a more interesting game world as far as lore and asthetics, etc.

But I still think no game has put all of these together in such a satisfying way as Baldur's Gate 2. Dragon Age: Origins comes the closest and still falls a little short.

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You could make that case for a lot of great games - ideally a good game should be innovative and not rehash something that already exists. I have no desire for a carbon copy of Baldur's Gate 2, but there are many other games that I find just as satisfying in their own way - and I have no doubt that there are still more to come.

Basically, if the definition of your "ideal game" is so narrow that only one existing game fits, you can't expect it to happen again unless it's a purely cash-in sequel (too late for BG2 there )

TheSisko said:

You could make that case for a lot of great games - ideally a good game should be innovative and not rehash something that already exists. I have no desire for a carbon copy of Baldur's Gate 2, but there are many other games that I find just as satisfying in their own way - and I have no doubt that there are still more to come.

Basically, if the definition of your "ideal game" is so narrow that only one existing game fits, you can't expect it to happen again unless it's a purely cash-in sequel (too late for BG2 there )

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My point was that other games did one or two things well, some even much better than BG2. But that BG2 seemed to do MOST things really well.

Planescape: Torment had much better writing and a great setting, I LOVED that game. But the game wasn't very challenging and combat was bland.

Morrowind is one of my favorite games of all time but I know the gameplay component was flawed. And the encyclopedia dialogue system was terrible. Still I loved it.

I had a ton of fun with Divine Divinity. But the combat system was nowhere as fun as BG2's, art design was a bit drab, and the last bit of the game was a chore.

Fallout was excellent - but too short. It also had not-so-great inventory management and a limited party system.

I can keep going - I've played many RPGs that I've loved, but the reason I consider BG2 my absolute favorite is because it seemed to do everything pretty well, which is rare in a CRPG. And that's my point: I don't want a rehash of BG2, just a game that has that level of excellence in most every category that's important to me.

And that same level of AMBITION.

If it happens to remind be a bit of BG2, that's not a bad thing. The closest to that would be Dragon Age, no coincidence since it's also Bioware. DA was the most fun I'd had with a western RPG in a long time.

And by the way, I'm only talking about CRPGs. If I were to include other genres or JRPGs, there are certainly other games I'd put at the same level or above BG2. It isn't the absolute greatest game ever made as far as I'm concerned.

I think just as highly of Persona 4, Final Fantasy 4 & 12, Super Metroid, Resident Evil 4, Dragon Quest 3 & 8, Castlevania: SOTN and a few others.

And like I said, Icewind Dale was pretty perfect for what it attempted. It was just limited in scope compared to BG2, but I think that was the point.

BG2 is a tough act to follow, admit it.

Relayer said:

And that's my point: I don't want a rehash of BG2, just a game that has that level of excellence in most every category that's important to me.

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That's the point, the criteria that produced the unique mix that is BG2 and that you think is the best was a product of a specific development team in a specific point in time - other games will have different strengths/weaknesses and be preferred by other people.
Personally, I like RPG with strong writing and more interesting settings and characters - as such I prefer Bloodlines, Torment and MotB over BG2.

I'm sure most people can present an argument on why their all-time favorite game (in any genre) is unique in ways that makes them hard to follow.

TheSisko said:

That's the point, the criteria that produced the unique mix that is BG2 and that you think is the best was a product of a specific development team in a specific point in time - other games will have different strengths/weaknesses and be preferred by other people.

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That's true, but some games have a larger following than others, and BG2 is an example of one of those few elite games that has a huge longtime fanbase.

Also, I didn't see Relayer claiming that everyone had to have the same preferences.

Well, If you guys don't want it i'll take a rehash of bg2.

I wouldn't want another Baldur's Gate. That game is the past.

But I'd like a true evolution of such a game, even if it was never THAT special to me.

I think we've had games that are near enough, if you consider the modern industry. I mean games like Drakensang (not for me, though) and Dragon Age are pretty close when you think about the kind of environment they have to survive in.

I think we'll get closer to a true evolution of the party-based CRPG as the mainstream audience gets exposed to more and more of the RPG genre. It's a good thing, to me, that RPG elements seem to be so universally appealing. If you look at the popular genres, like shooters, then you'll find RPG elements have been given an increasingly larger role - even if the genre is otherwise FAR removed from the traditional CRPG.

It means that people who would never consider playing a "cerebral and slow" game like Baldur's Gate are slowly being adjusted to certain features that are a staple of the genre.

Then we have MMOs, and I think no one here can argue they're not one of the biggest influences on the mainstream audience today.

That means there will be a larger market for games with strong RPG features in the future, and a lot more people would be willing to try something like a modern Baldur's Gate - and as such, it will be financially feasible. If Bioware makes it big with SWtOR - then there's an obvious opportunity. Not that I think Bioware would ever go back to a REAL Baldur's Gate - but after Dragon Age 2, it seems they've learned a lesson or two. They might just warm to the idea of making a more enthusiastic title, if for no other reason than to simply buy their old fans back.

But we can probably forget all about a turn-based edition, or a game which is going to require a lot of reading. That sort of thing is not likely to ever appeal to the mainstream audience - because they're not passionate about gaming on the same level as core fans.

As for "indie" versions, no, I don't think we're anywhere near a real Baldur's Gate there. Well, I mean we could get a game with similar visuals - but it wouldn't be an evolution. So far, I haven't seen a single indie game, released, with a scope approaching Baldur's Gate - unless we include those with visuals made by a 5-year old. No, I don't have much faith in the indie scene for big open world games with acceptable production values.

For that, I think we need to look towards the middle-market. Developers like PB or Obsidian (though I'm not a big fan anymore) could pull it off. There are many others, but their names escape me right now. It requires investors willing to go for a reasonably modest budget, and make do with a reasonable profit. Middle-market games like this are not likely to be huge hits, and that's why the greed-driven publishers will never bother. No, we need people who're OK with making a decent living and just turning a profit - though there will be risks involved like with any project of such a scope. But the budget means the risk is less. Not an exciting prospect for a businessman, but at least it will allow the artist to flourish - and it will pay off eventually - I have no doubt.

Relayer said:

My point was that other games did one or two things well, some even much better than BG2. But that BG2 seemed to do MOST things really well.

Planescape: Torment had much better writing and a great setting, I LOVED that game. But the game wasn't very challenging and combat was bland.

Morrowind is one of my favorite games of all time but I know the gameplay component was flawed. And the encyclopedia dialogue system was terrible. Still I loved it.

I had a ton of fun with Divine Divinity. But the combat system was nowhere as fun as BG2's, art design was a bit drab, and the last bit of the game was a chore.

Fallout was excellent - but too short. It also had not-so-great inventory management and a limited party system.

I can keep going - I've played many RPGs that I've loved, but the reason I consider BG2 my absolute favorite is because it seemed to do everything pretty well, which is rare in a CRPG. And that's my point: I don't want a rehash of BG2, just a game that has that level of excellence in most every category that's important to me.

And that same level of AMBITION.

If it happens to remind be a bit of BG2, that's not a bad thing. The closest to that would be Dragon Age, no coincidence since it's also Bioware. DA was the most fun I'd had with a western RPG in a long time.

And by the way, I'm only talking about CRPGs. If I were to include other genres or JRPGs, there are certainly other games I'd put at the same level or above BG2. It isn't the absolute greatest game ever made as far as I'm concerned.

I think just as highly of Persona 4, Final Fantasy 4 & 12, Super Metroid, Resident Evil 4, Dragon Quest 3 & 8, Castlevania: SOTN and a few others.

And like I said, Icewind Dale was pretty perfect for what it attempted. It was just limited in scope compared to BG2, but I think that was the point.

BG2 is a tough act to follow, admit it.

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BG2 didn't do the open world freeform gameplay well, which is why I never played it much.

Not that it set out to do that, but it's the reason I'm not a big fan.

I agree with Relayer. BG2 is not a perfect game but it delivered almost every aspect of game so well. It has its flaws yes, there are other games out there which were better done than BG2 in some aspects, yes. But as a whole packages, I've never come across a game as good as BG2. In saying that, I do not want another BG2. As Relayer put it, I want a new game with that level of ambition.

Just to sidetrack, I would love to see Blizzard working on a single player rpg with good storyline. Every single game they've delivered were huge success, and I was a huge fan of WoW myself for a long period of time. They might be the one who can deliver next rpg with same level of ambition as BG2. Diablo3 is most likely going to be pure hack 'n' slash just like it's 2 prequels, but still, I'm looking forward to it's release. Sounds like mad fun from what I've read/told.

blatantninja said:

On a side note, is Broken Hourglass actually canceled at this point? Last I saw the developer had some personal issue that had stopped the development, but it was 90% done.

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It was cancelled a while ago. Jason went through some tough time.... 'tis real shame.

DArtagnan said:

BG2 didn't do the open world freeform gameplay well, which is why I never played it much.

Not that it set out to do that, but it's the reason I'm not a big fan.

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I can understand this.

My ideal RPG would be a combination of BG2, Arcanum, and Morrowind.

Still, BG2 had a large cast of selectable NPCs, each with their own quests and there were a lot of optional quests.