Shadowrun Returns - Review Roundup #4

Mr Smiley said:

I don't believe in knowledge and claim none.

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!
So… there's nothing to learn? There's only opinion?
All the wisest thinkers in the history of our world were just wasting their time and ours… their understanding of anyything is as good as that of a toddler.
Lets demolish all schools and universities, lets tear our diplomas and burn all books in a big fire.

DArtagnan said:

Have you considered the meaning of these concepts, I wonder.

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Strangely, or perhaps rather logically, I would like to pose that very question to you, since I suspect they mean something different to each of us.

DArtagnan said:

How can you claim total subjectivity (dismissing knowledge, even) and yet still try to argue your points as if you believed they were right?

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Don't everybody believe they are right? I want to convince others to see things my way, or be convinced to see things their way. Most importantly, I want to understand and be understood, which is much more difficult than it might seem.

DArtagnan said:

You're actually calling me a liar - and you're saying that striving against objectivity is the right way to go.

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I am? I don't perceive you as a liar. Oh, you mean the part about objectivity being dishonest? Sorry about that. I guess it's not actually dishonest if you believe in it yourself. In order to embrace you bias and run with it, you must be aware of it to begin with. I'm inclined to consider your penchant for objectivity your primary bias.

DArtagnan said:

You sound like just the kind of reviewer I'd tend to avoid.

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Makes perfect sense. From previous discussions I have concluded that we don't want the same thing from a game. Obviously we don't want the same thing from a review either.

holeraw said:

!
So… there's nothing to learn? There's only opinion?
All the wisest thinkers in the history of our world were just wasting their time and ours… their understanding of anyything is as good as that of a toddler.
Lets demolish all schools and universities, lets tear our diplomas and burn all books in a big fire.

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Thinkers don't lost their time to review video games, nor even movies and certainly not many novels.

Or do you mean Mister D'Artagnan is a thinker?

That objectivity/subjectivity debate is far to be simple. I could quote you ton of music albums you wouldn't understand anything and would just flee. But I can "garanty" you it's great stuff.

The common vision is that the music mainstream of reviewers will setup the objective value of a music, alas it's not that simple because music is far out of their reach. One reviewer can"t have the knowledge of all that "should" be known. There's many very subjective elements in any appreciations. There's the culture and eduction aspect allowing appreciate more or less something. So it's not simple, we should agree start on this base.

So on this base why an opinion on a video game can differ a lot, the main element is that a game is a sum of a lot of different things and you cannot build any objective ladder saying that for example exploration is more important than dialogs, that sort of comparison is highly subjective and you won't be able to setup any scale of value between them.

There's many other elements but I'll stick to this one in this post.

Mr Smiley said:

Strangely, or perhaps rather logically, I would like to pose that very question to you, since I suspect they mean something different to each of us.

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Oh, I'm sure they mean something to you that I haven't even thought of

Don't everybody believe they are right? I want to convince others to see things my way, or be convinced to see things their way. Most importantly, I want to understand and be understood, which is much more difficult than it might seem.

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Makes very little sense considering what you just said. You claim no knowledge and striving for objectivity is the wrong way to go about it - and yet you're trying to convince others.

You most certainly don't seem even remotely interested in being convinced of anything

I am? I don't perceive you as a liar. Oh, you mean the part about objectivity being dishonest? Sorry about that. I guess it's not actually dishonest if you believe in it yourself. In order to embrace you bias and run with it, you must be aware of it to begin with. I'm inclined to consider your penchant for objectivity your primary bias.

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You still don't get it, do you.

I'm not claiming to be objective - I'm striving for objectivity.

Do you appreciate how different those two are? Because it doesn't seem that way.

The difference between you and I - is that you're not capable of admitting that you're striving for objectivity yourself - because apparently, you think it sounds nicer to claim no knowledge.

Which is fine, except it's silly and makes no sense

Makes perfect sense. From previous discussions I have concluded that we don't want the same thing from a game. Obviously we don't want the same thing from a review either.

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Ehm, why would that make perfect sense?

If I don't like beer and you do - does that mean I don't like the same movies you do?

Making sense is just not a big thing with you, is it

rikus said:

so how anyone here who played the first fallouts games feels about this one? in the gameplay video it was looking abit of a ripoff(underrail was a candidate for ripping but it didn't have the same feel at all).

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rune_74 said:

Not even close.

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it reminds me a lot of Fallout in terms of gameplay and its dystopian cynicism. or even PS:T with all the talk and text.

its a lot shorter and, of course, its pretty linear.

Lucky Day said:

it reminds me a lot of Fallout in terms of gameplay and its dystopian cynicism. or even PS:T with all the talk and text.

its a lot shorter and, of course, its pretty linear.

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Not at same level than Fallout 1. I mean Fallout 1 could be brutal and without piety for the player, SRR is more diplomatic with the player feeling so it ends with less strength.

But there's a lot of nuances and yeah it remind me too a bit Fallout 1. For PST I don't know there's hardly the same density of text and I still have to capture PST to succeed play it further than the morgue.

Yeah linear but without to have solved the save it couldn't be different. And linear but with many many little choices and sometimes some good exploration stuff. Ie it's not a blind railroad run.

Ihaterpg said:

I could quote you ton of music albums you wouldn't understand anything and would just flee.

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I could take you up on that challenge, you might be surprised.
(see my sig?)

There has been tons of writings on music. If you study the subject, you start to understand it and things that used to sound like random noise start making sense and you can genuinely enjoy them, don't you? Since you seem to understand that, you should see how it can't be all that subjective.

Serious maistream reviewers will not embarrass themselves by attempting to review what their knowledge is insufficient to understand (you don't need to be a proffessor of musicology to understand mainstream pop - it is meant to be understood by anyone - but you still need some knowledge to be able to understand quality), and even when they have to, they will resort to research. So, yeah, opinions differ but only by accepting that not all them are 'equally right' do you have a chance of improving your taste.

holeraw said:

I could take you up on that challenge, you might be surprised.
(see my sig?)

There has been tons of writings on music. If you study the subject, you start to understand it and things that used to sound like random noise start making sense and you can genuinely enjoy them, don't you? Since you seem to understand that, you should see how it can't be all that subjective.
…

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That you even believe known all enough to be able to be a fair judge is already meaning for me that you haven't yet pinpoint something.

Some samples, if you are curious and no I didn't tried search among the most experimental stuff I could find nor the most Avant Guarde. I wonder if you know a single of those releases, ok Blanche Blanche Blanche and Heavy Hawaii which have more or less reach the mainstream, perhaps Walter TV because a guy in the band jumped into the mainstream wagon, probably no other, and I doubt you'll be able to judge them all at their right value, but also I didn't tried make a very diversified selection, so there's no trap.

π - Ubik
X-Ray Fiends - X-Ray Fiends
White Lodge - Demo Tape
Waylon Thornton and the Heavy Hands - Enter The Coven
Walter TV - Appetite
Ultra Zook - EPUZZ
Tiny Hazard - Tiny Hazard
Protomartyr - No Passion All Technique
The Pheromoans - Does This Guy Stack Up?
Rainbow Gun Show - Not Quite A Butterfly
Organ Eyes - Multibody
Love Cop - Eat Yr Heart Out
Little Seizures - s/t EP
Lasso - Lasso'd
Joy As A Toy - Dead As A Dodo
Heavy Hawaii - Goosebumps
Ex-Cult - Ex-Cult
Die Zorros - Future
derTANZ - Kaktusz
Boyhood - When I'm Hungry
Boogarins - As Plantas Que Curam
Blanche Blanche Blanche - Wooden Ball
Black Bug - Reflecting the Light
Bill Baird - Spring Break Of The Soul
1400 Points De Suture - Baisse Les Yeux

Good listening but can you really enjoy them all at their right value?

EDIT: Ha and Protomartyr has also perhaps reach the mainstream, I don't remember, probably its 90's ex underground side.

EDIT2: And the real game is what are the most important and significant releases in that list… If there's really anything important. A Mainstream scientific music reviewer would know none and would answer none… But we can argue why he will be wrong or right and never agree.

3 hours in the game - like it so far.

HiddenX said:

3 hours in the game - like it so far.

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Rise up the difficulty if you flight through the fights, change the option before to load a game.

Already on the highest difficulty level - I do this in all games

I think I have played too many games in my life to play on normal.

HiddenX said:

Already on the highest difficulty level - I do this in all games

I think I have played too many games in my life to play on normal.

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Ha ok, well at first play I didn't realized Normal was a bit too easy until at some point the difficulty cramp up and I realized I should have increase the difficulty. Well myself I tend be cautious about that because I want keep freedom to make weirder builds and less optimized characters or parties. But for that game i didn't realized I could change the difficulty until late when I was struggling a bit.

Ihaterpg said:

That you even believe known all enough to be able to be a fair judge is already meaning for me that you haven't yet pinpoint something.

Some samples, if you are curious and no I didn't tried search among the most experimental stuff I could find nor the most Avant Guarde. I wonder if you know a single of those releases, ok Blanche Blanche Blanche and Heavy Hawaii which have more or less reach the mainstream, perhaps Walter TV because a guy in the band jumped into the mainstream wagon, probably no other, and I doubt you'll be able to judge them all at their right value, but also I didn't tried make a very diversified selection, so there's no trap.

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Well… they don't make me flee, that's for sure, and I do believe I am able to evaluate them fairly, but I'll just pm you I think - no point in making a post explaining my personal relationship with music here.

This thread isn't about the game anymore is it? Haha

Roq said:

Silent Storm (2003) shows what you can do with turn based combat. An RPG that was able to replicate that standard with modern graphics a decent campaign and the ability to save games would certainly rate 80%++. Let's hope that is what we will get with Wasteland 2 and other turn based games in the pipeline, it's certainly not what SRR is offering.

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I've wanted to play that game for a long time, back from when it came out and never got around to it.

It's in my library of purchased games from GOG and I surely intend to play it at some point. If it's better than SR:R I'll freely admit it.

I did give SR:R an 8, though, so SS would need at least an 8 for me to say it's better.

Could well be. But I've not played it yet.

I have finished the campaign for SR:R. I love the art style, I have zero problem with the graphics, I love the character creation, the story, the writing, the characters, and am just mildly annoyed at the save game system. I like the editor a lot and look forward to much content from it, and perhaps finally making something myself with it.

I have really no problems with SR:R, short of a few crashes - but if a game crashing on my PC caused me to not like it, most of my favorite games wouldn't be favorites anymore.

holeraw said:

Well… they don't make me flee, that's for sure, and I do believe I am able to evaluate them fairly, but I'll just pm you I think - no point in making a post explaining my personal relationship with music here.

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I answered your PM but don't see in send list, weird. If you haven't received the answer reply here so I know.

About evaluate them, well the only reference you listed is totally irrelevant so I have more the feeling you don't have the musical culture of those you tried listen quickly, no offense, music is huge and even more huge than huge.

And about making flee no way I tried make a selection to generate a flee. Perhaps I should have tried to stick to the context but didn't bother, too lazy.

Yme said:

This thread isn't about the game anymore is it? Haha

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Well, I have seen worse out of topic, the arguing was about objectivity/subjectivity for sure in CRPG but using Music point of view isn't irrelevant if it sticks to the subject followed by the thread. Did I escape well? Is my rhetoric good enough to make you believe me?

I'm only going to respond to two points here, in hopes of not starting a ridiculously long quotes war and because I can tell right now that I really don't want to try and have any discussions with you. But feel free to have the last word after this, if you like - I've only two more things to say to you and I'm done.

DArtagnan said:

here you go:

System Shock
BioForge
Pool of Radiance
Skyrim
Bioshock Infinite
Deus Ex
Vampire: Bloodlines
Knights of the Old Republic
The Secret World

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- never played it
- loved it at the time, cannot conceive of playing it now
- SSI Gold Box game? Huge fan of the Gold Box series, cannot rant enough about them.
- I like Skyrim and I don't. TES games are great for creating characters, great for having a huge setting, and then horrible at holding my interest as it feels like there is no THERE there for me; Fallout 3 was better, in it was smaller and more contained with a "stronger" central story; I'm glad Skyrim exists, it's nowhere near a favorite though
- I'll stay on the bandwagon with Infinite with everyone else. A masterpiece. I love Ken Levine
- I came to this one late, as in like a year ago; I can see why it would have been revolutionary at the time, but I couldn't finish it and it certainly doesn't hold up AT ALL (assuming you mean the original and not HR)
- another of my absolute favorites, Brian Mitsoda is awesome, but it's hard to argue with people who point out the ridiculous amount of flaws with this game : Troika didn't even make flawed gems, they gave you diamond dust
- I hate Star Wars with a passion, especially Jedi, but KotOR was an amazing game, one of BioWare's best
- while the setting is intriguing, I do not like MMO's (not for like of trying - I've beta'd numerous ones from Dark Sun Online up to TOR) and will likely never play this, though I've had it on and off of my Steam wishlist (masochist, I know - MMO's will never be what I want, but I keep trying them anyway)

Wait… I didn't just tear them apart? Can that mean I don't WANT to tear them apart, but just want people to be brave enough to list what they like so other people CAN (not WILL, but CAN) tear them apart?

No, of course not. You clearly have me pegged as just not willing to have the slightest iota of comprehension that people have different opinions about entertainment media and what they like and don't. You have me down. No straw man there.

In any case, fair is fair:

Hitchhikker's Guide to the Galaxy
Wizard's Crown
Maniac Mansion
Treasures of the Savage Frontier
Knights of Legend
Wasteland
Star Control 2
River City Ransom
Wing Command IV
Full Throttle
Street Fighter 2
Spider-Man: Maximum Carnage
Fallout 2
Starcraft
Icewind Dale
Marvel Vs. Capcom 2
Freedom Force
V:TM-Bloodlines
Breakdown
Medieval Total War
Dawn of War
Mass Effect
Dragon Age: Origins
Bioshock
Alpha Protocol
Fallout: New Vegas
The Walking Dead

DArtagnan said:

What straw man are you trying to knock down? Because it's not working.

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Uhm… you might want to learn what a straw man fallacy is… as I'm not trying to put words in your mouth, nor am I trying to misrepresent your arguments to ridicule you.

That'd be the guy you see in the mirror every day who's setting up the straw men. At least, that was what I was implying.

Cause I hadn't even been talking to you at all when you quoted me and told me that I just can't accept others having different opinions.

Ihaterpg said:

Ha ok, well at first play I didn't realized Normal was a bit too easy until at some point the difficulty cramp up and I realized I should have increase the difficulty. Well myself I tend be cautious about that because I want keep freedom to make weirder builds and less optimized characters or parties. But for that game i didn't realized I could change the difficulty until late when I was struggling a bit.

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Normal was pretty ridiculous easy for me. It boggles my mind to read reviews where the review complains about the save system NOT because it is frustrating to not be able to save a game whenever so if you have to stop playing you can without having to replay stuff BUT because they die so much and replaying battles get frustrating.

I mean, I understand that different people are better at different kinds of games. I suck at FPS, and die a lot on normal in any FPS game. But turn-based, tactical strategy games on normal are almost always cakewalks.

I think it must be what people are used to or good at, probably.

Anyway, I will certainly re-run SR:R on a higher difficulty.

Well I'm not that bad in tactical and strategy and turn based, perhaps I didn't analyzed enough the possibilities but at some point with a character with points spread on 4 directions and i spend most of the money before a stronger point because i wanted played it angelic and refused finish a mission to get the bounty. But I had made the expense to finance the mission (optional mission) and right after there was a tougher part.

I also for one part I get troubles as a Decker which was my character to do the role, it took me some time to pinpoint the tricks I had to use at this point.

And again later in last parts I had also to rise up my skills and knowledge of the game and was more than happy when after a series of combats, my team was exhausted with many with low heath, and then found a refill point with some items to refill stocks right before the final step, was more than helpful to not have to reload back.

I'd say that for now the re run is much better than i believed. I was pushed by curiosity to explore more various possibilities, try a harder level and build a very different character. But also during re play there was cool echoes coming from the previous play, with parts having at replay a stronger mood and emotion when you have the experience of the game and the whole story or even quote better some details during the replay. Moreover it's fun to quote the differences and options I hadn't notice or hadn't because of a different character.