Gov Perry apparently wasn't kidding concerning Texas Secession

A rational explanation...self-determination, secession is our great tradition.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jvliy8rEJDQ&eurl

Self determination doesn't mean "kick over the sandcastle when things don't go your way". I like Ron Paul a lot, but he's wrong on this. If he's trying to compare the revolution or the USSR breakup to what Governor Perry is talking about is pretty ludicrous. Texans have a fair and democratic government and aren't being oppressed or having their right to representation taken away. They called it a perpetual union for a reason, you know.
 
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I think it's because we have the technology to do it now - which I'm not sure anyone else other then our NATO allies and possibly Russia can pull off. At least that's the argument as I've always heard it - we don't need to re-enact Dresden, Hamburg, or Tokyo on Baghdad or Tehran or Pyongyang in a war. Basically that since we have things like smart bombs we don't need to level entire neighborhoods and thus we shouldn't do it if at all possible. Which is understandable, jus in bello already has the idea of avoiding unnecessary civilian casualties when possible. Whether or not you think the laws of war are serious or not is another issue entirely.

I'd thought it was that the west isn't fighting wars against opponents of remotely similar strength or with any slight prospect of taking the fight to us any more.

Germany was pretty tough, had they left Russia alone and had their allies not given America a politically palatable reason to join in they would almost certainly have conquered most of Europe. Even by the time dresden was bombed we might not have been in much danger of losing, but the act of winning was inflicting a huge toll and a strong message like that did hasten the end of it all.
 
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Germany was pretty tough, had they left Russia alone and had their allies not given America a politically palatable reason to join in they would almost certainly have conquered most of Europe.

Um, Germany *did* conquer most of Europe. They just weren't able to hold onto it.

654px-Second_world_war_europe_1941-1942_map_en.png
 
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It's not really that far off the wall to consider. Texas is very much a distinct social entity from the rest of the US (so are other states).

Take a look at Quebec. How often have they talked about secession? Hell, they've had several votes that were really close. And this is in a very stable, prosperous country.

In Texas, there was a group called 'The Republic of Texas' that was fairly active back when I was in college. They eventually went a bit too far and the Feds arrested them all (after quite a standoff too). While these guys were fringe, there was a sizable portion of people that at least sympathized with them, if not actually supported them. Given this history, as well as the simple distinctiveness in the Texan mindset (seriously, meet a Texan overseas and ask him/her where he/she is from, 99% of the time they will say Texas, not the US. The same can't be said of other states) makes it a relevant question.

We're not even close to a point where secession would have enough support to come to a vote, much less be approved, but if the Federal government keeps going the way it has been heading, that sentiment will continue to grow.

Your right about asking someone where they are from, my first answer is always California. Ask a Canadian or South African where they're from and they'll always just say Canada or South Africa.

What I really think is nuts is not so much the secession part (although for some reason that just pisses me off to no end) the part that is well and truly just bozo bonkers is the part of politicians like that schmuck using it to further his political ends. Even though everyone is still being represented in the government and who is being oppressed so badly that bozo needs to inflame everyone with his rhetoric? Right when everything is starting to look a little better, you have people like him and his "win by any means possible" thinking.

I'm not from Texas, but I sure as hell know people from there. My sister lived in Corpus Christy for quite a while. I didn't really see this "different country" when I visited Texas. Maybe I'm just used to the desert and ocean or something but the people there seemed no different than the people who lived in California, with a few exceptions. You tear down the stereotypes and the physical BS and deep down we are all Americans. Even us dressed up pigs who live in California (can't remember who said that, but I think Roqua had that kind remark for my fellow Californians. He should try saying that down in Fontana and see how far he makes it down the street.) Anyways, it's stupid BS like that, that makes me feel sorry for people who can't get past the superficial nonsense.

So now the dems are the flag waving nuts and the Republicans are the hippies(anti-government and all that) ;) I couldn't help throwing in that comparison:D

My question to you is: What direction is too much? Changing the health care system so it makes sense? Changing the military so it makes sense? Changing our foriegn policy so it makes sense? What part is too much and how does it affect your daily life? Everyone is being represented in the government. There is taxation WITH representation. No one is being totured in fact were coming clean with all that BS. I can understand if there were police in the streets enforcing strict codes of conduct or the government was dictating to you what you can or can't say. But none of that is happening.

All of this seems like just another politician, like bozo, trying to stir up the base at the expense of America and that is what pisses me off the most.
 
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I think it's because we have the technology to do it now - which I'm not sure anyone else other then our NATO allies and possibly Russia can pull off. At least that's the argument as I've always heard it - we don't need to re-enact Dresden, Hamburg, or Tokyo on Baghdad or Tehran or Pyongyang in a war.

Media coverage has probably increased the political cost of a Dresden or Hamburg a lot. Unless the public is in a besieged state of mind (Israel comes to mind) or in affect (the US immediately post 9-11 seems like an example) it doesnt really want to see such things done in its name. Vietnam seems like a historical turning point, and the improved communications of today has made it even more difficult to present a clean surface.

EDIT: Benedict is right as well. In a life and death struggle the gloves would be off.
 
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So now the dems are the flag waving nuts and the Republicans are the hippies(anti-government and all that) ;) I couldn't help throwing in that comparison:D
Does this mean I have to take up recreational drugs? The "Free Love" thing has some potential... I've always been told that shoegaze is best experienced while tripping, so I've already got the druggy music covered. The Man is keeping me down, man!

I'm not sure how we're going to fit in the pro-military angle, though. Perhaps we substitute--"the commune" becomes "the compound"?
 
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Does this mean I have to take up recreational drugs? The "Free Love" thing has some potential...

Thing is, it's a lot more fun when there's more than one person involved. And who'd want to sleep with a Republican?
 
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Does this mean I have to take up recreational drugs? The "Free Love" thing has some potential... I've always been told that shoegaze is best experienced while tripping, so I've already got the druggy music covered. The Man is keeping me down, man!

I'm not sure how we're going to fit in the pro-military angle, though. Perhaps we substitute--"the commune" becomes "the compound"?

You're on your first steps traveller. But for the best experience I highly recommend Pink Floyd's 'The Wall' It will blow your mind away, literally ;p

The compound sounds like a good start, just don't mix the blackpowder in with the LSD. It might make your bullets do some trippy stuff :D

@PJ there is always that blond on the View who would love to join I bet and of course you can't leave out good ol Ann coulter. She isn't bad looking once she retracts her claws and fangs ;p
 
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@PJ there is always that blond on the View who would love to join I bet and of course you can't leave out good ol Ann coulter. She isn't bad looking once she retracts her claws and fangs ;p

Well, I suppose, if you're into necrophilia. But then perhaps that's a Republican thing too?
 
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If ya can't be stiff with the one you love, love the stiff yer with!
 
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If ya can't be stiff with the one you love, love the stiff yer with!

LMAO....Thanks DTE, seriously that is the first time in R/L I've ever laughed out loud in a long time. You and PJ make a great team, maybe think about taking it on the road.
 
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What I really think is nuts is not so much the secession part (although for some reason that just pisses me off to no end) the part that is well and truly just bozo bonkers is the part of politicians like that schmuck using it to further his political ends. Even though everyone is still being represented in the government and who is being oppressed so badly that bozo needs to inflame everyone with his rhetoric? Right when everything is starting to look a little better, you have people like him and his "win by any means possible" thinking.

Perry is about to be in the fight of his life in the Republican Primary for Govenor against one of our Senators, Kay Bailee Hutchison. He's doing everything in his power to make him seem like a 'state guy' and her a 'federal pawn.' Distasteful, but expected.

I didn't really see this "different country" when I visited Texas. Maybe I'm just used to the desert and ocean or something but the people there seemed no different than the people who lived in California, with a few exceptions.

It's not about the landscape, it's about the attitude. I'll agree that with the massive influx of people from other states over the past 30 years, the state identity isn't as strong as it used be, but it is still there.

My question to you is: What direction is too much? Changing the health care system so it makes sense? Changing the military so it makes sense? Changing our foriegn policy so it makes sense? What part is too much and how does it affect your daily life? Everyone is being represented in the government. There is taxation WITH representation.

It comes down to perception more than anything else. People are feeling the economic pinch and during this, many are seeing their taxes raised and the taxes they pay being put towards what they perceive as corporate welfare (TARP, etc) as well as wasted through various other programs.

The biggest problem with healthcare reforms is that while we all want reforms that make sense, most of the people that have decent healthcare are scared shitless(myself included) that 1) our costs will go up (while others' costs may go down) and/or 2) our quality of care will decrease.

There's also real fear about the government taking on a level of debt that literally could cause an eventual default. I was too young in the 80's to know what people were saying back then, but I know a lot of people that feel like we were already over extended before Obama came into office and now with his trillion dollar deficit we're going past the point of no return.

Top that off with the growing pessimism of paying into a fundamentally flawed social security system that is accruing payment obligations that it can't possibly handle without a major change to benefit structure (which no politician will touch) or a huge jump in taxation, and you've got a lot of people generally worried about what Washington is doing.

It's really about the money. We don't like sending it to Washington in the first place and we like it even less when we perceive that it is being spent frivolously, especially in an economic downturn.
 
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Self determination doesn't mean "kick over the sandcastle when things don't go your way". I like Ron Paul a lot, but he's wrong on this. If he's trying to compare the revolution or the USSR breakup to what Governor Perry is talking about is pretty ludicrous. Texans have a fair and democratic government and aren't being oppressed or having their right to representation taken away. They called it a perpetual union for a reason, you know.

It is where you draw the line in the sand ..."oppressed", "rights taken away"? this is not USSR! How about ireconcilable difference to end that marriage for life? It is about respect of individual and state right where the federal government tramples all over. Bet you miss RP's point...when the collasal f*&king sandcastle is about to collapse, guess who will be under it. Perry's words are a dime a dozen...but to have this debate among texan is worth million and perhaps save billions.

More RP's voice on CNN this moring http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1EsFXrkDL-Q&eurl
 
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Your right about asking someone where they are from, my first answer is always California. Ask a Canadian or South African where they're from and they'll always just say Canada or South Africa.

Uhm, that's wrong. I will always say I'm from Quebec first, canadia second. And I'm far from the only one in my situation. I think that's something typical from living in a federal country.

They have pretty much the same mindset in Newfoundland (the former british colony that joined Canada at the end of WW2).
 
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Uhm, that's wrong. I will always say I'm from Quebec first, canadia second. And I'm far from the only one in my situation. I think that's something typical from living in a federal country.

They have pretty much the same mindset in Newfoundland (the former british colony that joined Canada at the end of WW2).

Quebec was the only other place that came to mind when I was thinking of this. I've never heard anyone say "I'm from British Columbia."
 
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Perry is about to be in the fight of his life in the Republican Primary for Govenor against one of our Senators, Kay Bailee Hutchison. He's doing everything in his power to make him seem like a 'state guy' and her a 'federal pawn.' Distasteful, but expected.



It's not about the landscape, it's about the attitude. I'll agree that with the massive influx of people from other states over the past 30 years, the state identity isn't as strong as it used be, but it is still there.



It comes down to perception more than anything else. People are feeling the economic pinch and during this, many are seeing their taxes raised and the taxes they pay being put towards what they perceive as corporate welfare (TARP, etc) as well as wasted through various other programs.

The biggest problem with healthcare reforms is that while we all want reforms that make sense, most of the people that have decent healthcare are scared shitless(myself included) that 1) our costs will go up (while others' costs may go down) and/or 2) our quality of care will decrease.

There's also real fear about the government taking on a level of debt that literally could cause an eventual default. I was too young in the 80's to know what people were saying back then, but I know a lot of people that feel like we were already over extended before Obama came into office and now with his trillion dollar deficit we're going past the point of no return.

Top that off with the growing pessimism of paying into a fundamentally flawed social security system that is accruing payment obligations that it can't possibly handle without a major change to benefit structure (which no politician will touch) or a huge jump in taxation, and you've got a lot of people generally worried about what Washington is doing.

It's really about the money. We don't like sending it to Washington in the first place and we like it even less when we perceive that it is being spent frivolously, especially in an economic downturn.


Thank you Blatantninja, that does put it into better perspective (for me at least).

Although I wasn't just talking about the landscape, that was just familiarity with the region. I was talking about the people I met there and some of my sisters friends. Sure the accents might be different and the clothes, in some cases. But it wasn't like going to a foriegn country at all. Believe me I know the difference now between what a foreign country is and isn't ;) But you know deep down we all we just plain old Americans, albeit having a blast and drinking our asses off at the local bar. Seems like everytime I came down there we would hit up the bar.

Ehhh, maybe that's why I've been avoiding this topic so much, because I know people down there and wouldn't call them friends since I never keep in touch, but people I liked a lot and just plain ol Americans/Texans ;) When someone says that the other parts of the country are like a foriegn country, then those people haven't gotten to know anyone or gotten past the superficial bs that goes along with each state. I've been all over to Wisconsin, Oregon, Arizona, Nevada, Washington, Utah, Idaho, pretty much you name a state in the West and I've either visited it for a time or have lived there. I've gotten to know a lot of different people over the years from different states and like I said, deep down we are all just Americans at heart.

Anyways that's neither here nor there. Just wish all these different states would figure out that we are all Americans no matter what place we happened to born in or live in. Trying to break that up would have catastrophic affects that go beyond money or map borders.
 
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Uhm, that's wrong. I will always say I'm from Quebec first, canadia second. And I'm far from the only one in my situation. I think that's something typical from living in a federal country.

They have pretty much the same mindset in Newfoundland (the former british colony that joined Canada at the end of WW2).

Then out of the many dozens of Canadians I've met over the past 7 years, you are the first who would of replied that way. Hell there are more Canadians over here than there are Americans or South Africans and not one has ever said they're from Quebec or anywhere else in Canada. I actually have to inquire further for them to tell me. So, from my experience and point of view, Canadians (over in Taiwan) always answer from Canada.
 
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Perhaps because canadians living in Taiwan arent very representative of the canadian population as a whole? Just like american living in Paris are certainly not representative of the american people!

Just for your information, as Bj mentioned, we have had two referendums about the secession of Quebec since 1980. Last one was in 1995 and was lost by a slight margin of more or less 1%. Many here consider that it was mostly lost due to the federal governement handing out fast citizenship to newly arrived immigrants, and spending massive amount of money, more than permitted by the electoral law, for the "no".
 
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