Jade Empire.

txa1265 said:

Wow ... I never thought about it that way ... but then I'm funny about considering side-quests as optional. In other words ... I don't

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I always complete games 95-100% in the first run, leaving no stone unturned as long as I know where they are. I never replay the game again after finishing it.

Unless the game is 100% new I use walkthroughs to make sure I get to see everything on the first run.

JemyM said:

I always complete games 95-100% in the first run, leaving no stone unturned as long as I know where they are. I never replay the game again after finishing it.

Unless the game is 100% new I use walkthroughs to make sure I get to see everything on the first run.

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I know the feeling but with the introduction of the Good vs. Evil paths in KOTOR and several games since then, there are quests that can't be taken, let alone solved, once you've chosen your path.

The companion exploration in NWN (and to a lesser degree in NWN2 as well) also forces you to make choice since only campanions you actually travel with will reveal their past to you.

When I finished Jade Empire (without looking on the interweb at all) I realized that I was missing 2 allies, 2 or 3 flyer missions and the last part of the Lao's forge (sp?) section. One ally, I found out afterwards, was not possible as the shiny beacon of open "palminess" that I was so that is okay but I still missed out on a few things. Oh well, another run through with a fist fighting hot chick instead of my peacefull shaolin monk will rectify that mistake

fatBastard() said:

I know the feeling but with the introduction of the Good vs. Evil paths in KOTOR and several games since then, there are quests that can't be taken, let alone solved, once you've chosen your path.

The companion exploration in NWN (and to a lesser degree in NWN2 as well) also forces you to make choice since only campanions you actually travel with will reveal their past to you.

When I finished Jade Empire (without looking on the interweb at all) I realized that I was missing 2 allies, 2 or 3 flyer missions and the last part of the Lao's forge (sp?) section. One ally, I found out afterwards, was not possible as the shiny beacon of open "palminess" that I was so that is okay but I still missed out on a few things. Oh well, another run through with a fist fighting hot chick instead of my peacefull shaolin monk will rectify that mistake

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Thing is, to me Good & Evil isnt really an option. I cant play evil and find no entertainment in doing so. NWN did not offer me much but I did complete the story for the NPC's in Hordes of the Underdark as much as I wanted with the only exception that I wouldnt mind Deekin a bit longer, but I wasnt that interested to replay the whole game just because of Deekin. In NWN2 I felt the same, so I cheated a bit with the influence rating after I was done to find out what would happen if I acted differently, but replaying the whole game for that was too much for me.

While I could replay Jade Empire with an alternate character, alternate fighting styles, maybe with an alternate love interest, it's simply not enough difference when I already know the end and all plot twists in the game.

Only two games I have replayed recently is Oblivion (I made a character to play the Dark Brotherhood and the Thieves Guild only) and Max Payne 2 (finished 4 times for the alternate ending before there was a cheat available).

aries100 said:

I don't understand why you would say that the Xbox and PC version are rated 16+ as this is a PEGI rating, and Germany has its own rating system in which the USK rates the game. And their ratings typically has as 12+ and 15+ mark on them.

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Since Gorath is German, I think he knows the rating system that is used here . Please refer to this page at the USK website to find out that 16+ is a valid USK rating and -no- they didn't just change it last week either. Germany has never had a 15+ category to my best knowledge. Neither for movies nor for games.

aries100 said:

If you read the official Bioware forums dealing with JE: SE(for pc), you will see that Bioware does not agree with this decision, but in order to get the games out in say Germany (and other parts of the world), sometimes compromises must be reached.

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Yes, Germany is notorious in cutting things out.

Command & Conquer had changed everything "human" into "androids" because there was a strong chance it wouldn't be sold here, then.

Green blood is common, too.

aries100 said:

Please note that this was not Bioware's decision to do so. To cut blood & gore out of the German PC version (of JE: SE) has been decided by the German publisher, not Bioware. If you read the official Bioware forums dealing with JE: SE(for pc), you will see that Bioware does not agree with this decision, but in order to get the games out in say Germany (and other parts of the world), sometimes compromises must be reached.

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I´ve checked the Bioware forums a few minutes ago. Bioware´s position is clever from a business perspective. As far as I can say it doesn´t correctly represent the way the German USK (rates the game if they think it´s within the requirements of the law) and the BPjM (can only act if the USK refuses to give a rating to a game) works though.
The USK gave the full uncut XBox version a "16". It´s quite unlikely they would have cganged this unless the PC version included much more explicit violence. I think it´s more probable the USK would, if communicated correctly, have considered the PC version content-identical to the XBox version and thus given it the same rating.
Unless the way the USK rates changed dramatically since the release of the XBox version it´s not logical the same game would receive a more restrictive rating just because of a higher resolution, let alone two steps up the ladder. (16->18-> "rating refused")
Now Take2 ordered the gore and special moves cut out - with no positive effect on the rating. Which is no surprise because neither the USK nor the BPjM use a checklist to determine a rating. The overall tone of the game counts - and it´s obviously not changed significantly enough to get a "12" by removing the mentioned things. That´s what I think did really happen. T2 wanted to get a "12", they failed and just let it like it was.

I don't understand why you would say that the Xbox and PC version are rated
16+ as this is a PEGI rating, and Germany has its own rating system in which the USK rates the game. And their ratings typically has as 12+ and 15+ mark on them.

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I wrote "16", not "16+". Germany uses USK rating. PEGI doesn´t matter over here. Both versions have the blue "16" sticker.

If you would like to have the uncut game, you could download it digitally from the Bioware store.

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No thanks. I want a box and a disk. Maybe when I see it on budget in the UK. Or really cheap in Germany. I heard at least the gore can be put back in.

LOL. How do you people finish games like KOTOR and JE in 3-4 days?!? Don't you have jobs and such? I spend enough time gaming to constantly piss off my girlfriend and it still takes me at least a week to finish games like that.

JemyM said:

Thing is, to me Good & Evil isnt really an option. I cant play evil and find no entertainment in doing so.

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HA! I know EXACTLY what you mean. I haven't been able to play either KOTOR game as a dark sider and I only managed to get halfway through NWN2 as a lawful evil Warlock before I couldn't stomach the taint anymore

I wanted to start another run through of Jade Empire with a closed fist character but only a few minutes after starting a new game the bad taste of foulness returned. What a pair of wussies we are

JemyM said:

Only two games I have replayed recently is Oblivion (I made a character to play the Dark Brotherhood and the Thieves Guild only) and Max Payne 2 (finished 4 times for the alternate ending before there was a cheat available).

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I actually did all of the factions on my first run through of Oblivion. The Thieves Guild didn't cause me any qualms because of the "no killing while on the job" rule and since the first entrance giving kill (and the only innocent blood spilled) for the Dark Brotherhood was unavoidable if you wanted to complete the Grey Champion quest, the bad taste was sort of washed away. After that, the rest sort of deserved their fate anyway

I haven't gone through Max Payne 2 several times but the first Max Payne I must have played through 3 times in the vanilla version and after discovering the kung fu mod I must have played it at least 4 times more while kicking and punching to my heart's content

I can play short-term or whimsical evil, like running around city streets wiping innocent people out here and there just to watch them blow up, or go berserk and see if I can kill everyone in the tavern or town without the guards being able to take me. Then, I reload my game and play normally.

fatBastard() said:

HA! I know EXACTLY what you mean. I haven't been able to play either KOTOR game as a dark sider and I only managed to get halfway through NWN2 as a lawful evil Warlock before I couldn't stomach the taint anymore

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Strange. So far I thought I was the only one reacting like this.

Can you imagine how all the people pressing in in the official Drakensang forums saying "we want to play evil in Drakjensang" appear to me ?

Alrik Fassbauer said:

Can you imagine how all the people pressing in in the official Drakensang forums saying "we want to play evil in Drakjensang" appear to me ?

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They make me want to vote for and against child abuse at the same time.
For because the spoiled brats need proper spanking.
Against because child abuse might have created the sad devils.

So far, Fable was the only game where I actually had fun playing an evil character... because it was so hilarious being silly. But my first character ended up as outrageously good, as always (~neutral good).

Maybe some people don't stand and stare at the scenery to inflate playtime.

I just finished the game without speeding through it and the savegame registers 20 hours, and that was taking things at a leasurely pace along with completing all the optional quests - including yon standard romance plots, the Raiden-styled minigame, becoming Arena champion, finding and activating all the available recipes in Lao's furnace, and so on. I don't recall having skimped on any sidequest, other than one or two which required an exclusive moral path to be undertaken.

I suspect a replay would clock below 20 hours since I already have most of the game pat down; even shorter than that if I replay the game with a final save character.

I'm not gonna start a new topic about Jade Empire so I'll post here

I just finished this game for the first time. I quite liked it.
I hated the combat.

The first 50% of the gamewas "OK" but it really got more and more
interesting in the end. The plot had a nice epic feel to it and I liked the
end part of the game. It seems I too missed many of the "optional" things in this game. It was definitely worth playing. definitely. I might even play it again in a year or two. or three.

The soundtrack to this game was absolutely marvellous. I need to get it so I can listen to it outside the game.

Also you who "can't understand playing evil" are just plain wrong.
Playing a cruel and malicious character is great fun in any game.
Games that force you to be a shiny-do-gooder-help-all-the-poor-****ing-grandmas-asking-for-help are disgusting.

I admit sometimes choosing the really cruel lines in a discussion might feel hard sometimes.. especially if the game is even a little emotionally involving.. but after you do it - it's worth it

Someone actually FINISHED Fable without being evil?! That was the only fun thing about that game. What?! You actually freed the inhabitans of that brothel?!?! Ugh... you make me sick!

i always intend to replay a game as an evil character but there's really no insentive. roleplaying a character that i would despise just doesn't overcome the powergamer lurking and the need to "see it all". while i agree that the games should give you a choice, i'm actually (now that i think about it) kind of pissed that in fable, kotor, and other such games the writers and devopers spend nearly an equal amount of time crafting evil responses as good ones. are there really that many people who play out evil, and do those people care about depth? i much prefer games like gothic were your actions are more along the lines of beating someone up, killing them, or stealing from them. to me when dialogue trees are wasted on all kinds of ridiculous responses that don't actual "do" anything action wise...its such a waste. i love humour in a game and sadly many bioware games specificaly save the humour for chaotic and evil characters--boo! but we live in the age of choice and most people would probably prefer 4 sub par restuarants they could eat at rather than only having one really good one.

Zakhary said:

Someone actually FINISHED Fable without being evil?! That was the only fun thing about that game. What?! You actually freed the inhabitans of that brothel?!?! Ugh... you make me sick!

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Yeah, I played mega-good, glowing and all, with hearts just flowing out of people as I walked down the street ... I enjoy that stuff

fatBastard() said:

I wanted to start another run through of Jade Empire with a closed fist character but only a few minutes after starting a new game the bad taste of foulness returned. What a pair of wussies we are

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I don't think it's so much that we're wussies (I'm also a gamer goody-goody, generally speaking). It's that evil is usually really badly done in games. It's un-fun, caricatured, gratuituous cruelty and nastiness, and almost invariably nowhere near as well rewarded as good. This makes evil pretty much a non-choice; the game mechanics themselves push you towards the good path.

Take NWN2: in Chapter 1, pretty much the only evil options are gratuitous cruelty (e.g. slitting the Mossfeld brothers' throats in the initial battle), not actually tagged as evil (e.g. killing Slaan during the first encounter, robbing inns and houses along the way to Neverwinter), or not options at all (e.g. that one act of arson you have to do if you're on the "low path").

I would be very interested to play a game where evil was done in a more... evil way. Or real way. Where evil is the easy choice, the temptation, the quick reward; the small cruelties and omissions that stain your soul and slowly harden your heart, something you have to constantly fight against... or succumb to it. Petty evil is just petty; great evil only follows from the noblest of motivations, when the end starts to justify the means and eventually becomes the end in itself. The KOTOR games come close to dilemmas like this at times -- the Genoharadan quests, the early parts of KOTOR 2 where you get to pick your side, that sort of thing. However, it's still pretty simplistic, and much of the "dark side" is still just petty cruelty.

Yep-o, I'm still waiting for the game where evil is the easy, tempting path and good is the path you really have to work at. Perhaps there will be one like that one of these days. Hell, if not, I might even make one myself.

Prime Junta said:

I don't think it's so much that we're wussies (I'm also a gamer goody-goody, generally speaking). It's that evil is usually really badly done in games. It's un-fun, caricatured, gratuituous cruelty and nastiness, and almost invariably nowhere near as well rewarded as good. This makes evil pretty much a non-choice; the game mechanics themselves push you towards the good path.

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You have a very good point there. The big problem here (in addition to that) is that when - for example - a poor helpless farmer comes to you begging for help and says that he has nothing to offer you and you are given the choice of accept his quest, politely decline or say something very nasty to him... most people will just accept the quest automatically knowing that they WILL gain all sorts of reward: XP, loot, gold, equipment.. perhaps even a nice little subplot or something. Those playing evil characters would just have to be satisfied with saying "no" or saying something vulgar and then leaving him there crying or just kill him (And in case of JE or Fable be "rewarded" with a small increment to some cheesy "evil" counter).

That's not right.

Exactly as you said, it should be the valiant un-selfish do-gooder that is left without gold, women and fame.

Very good point you made there.

Zakhary said:

Exactly as you said, it should be the valiant un-selfish do-gooder that is left without gold, women and fame.

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Another thing that bugs me about games is that unintended consequences are so rare. In real life, it's not at all uncommon to do something with the best of intentions only to screw it up real bad. In games, this sort of thing is rare enough to count as a major plot twist (or, alternatively, completely pointless diversion).

For example, Jade Empire's Closed Fist would have been a much stronger experience if you could actually see it work. For example, taking the Closed Fist path with Smiling Mountain's challenge results in the death of one of your student colleagues. This is obviously rather... discouraging. Imagine if instead the converse was true -- say, being nice to your fellow student results in her being so trusting that she gets tricked into opening the school gate to the invaders. Now, imagine that the outcomes of the Open Palm/Closed Fist choices were roughly evenly divided this way.

I for one would like it.

Way back in the early days of CD-Rom games there was this wonderful game call "Wing Commander 3: Heart of the Tiger". Anyone old enough to vote must surely know the game but for our younger audience I can say that it is one of the great space shooter games of the time.

Somewhere along the path of the story you're betrayed by a friend and it costs the life of another of the characters you've gotten to know pretty well. With said person's dying breath the cry for vengeance is placed on your shoulders and I myself was trembling in rage (yes, I was) so when given the choice to storm after the traitor or count to 10 and calm down, there was initially NO choice for me. However, while I was off playing the right hand of Mr. Big, the carrier came under attack and because I wasn't there to help another of your friends dies ... now THAT was a tough decision to make. On one hand the NEED for revenge is mighty strong but on the other hand the satisfaction is tempered with a profound consequence for your action. Punish the betrayer and let another one die or save your friend while the betrayer gets away.

Rarely have I had to put so much thought into what choice to make. Excellent stuff. Damn you EA for closing down Origin