Baldur's Gate 2 - Best RPG Ever

JDR13 said:

So it's more overrated because more people like it? Not sure I agree with that logic.

Click to expand...

Greater fanbase gives a greater potential for overrating (which isnt a matter of absolute quality but rather about the relationship between reputation/rating and quality). It's simple mathematics, more fans correlate with more fanboys (who pretty much overrate things by definition). Something that everyone thinks is shit is on the other hand not overrated unless it is worse than shit.

Not that BG2 (which certainly is among the top 5-10 RPGs ever made) suffers particularly bad from overrating compared to Oblivion or Mass Effect 2 (to name two highly competent productions with really glaring flaws that probably have way bigger fanbases than BG2) …

DArtagnan said:

If you co-op with the right person/people - your immersion can actually be enhanced. This is from personal experience.

The sharing of a strong gaming experience, can lead to the whole thing becoming almost a "life event" that you can talk about for years. I've had this happen to me more than once, and I can't think of too many RPGs where having properly implemented cooperative multiplayer wouldn't make the game much stronger.

But, it's key to have people you like to be with and who share your approach to playing games - and I've always insisted on being in the same room and having extended sessions for this to really work well. Not an easy thing to accomplish for an adult with responsibilities - but it's worth it when feasible.

This is, naturally, just my opinion - but I really think people are missing out by discounting this vital aspect.

Click to expand...

I certainly don't want to completely discount the fun and enjoyment of good co-op play, but it's because of the difficulties you mentioned in putting together a "proper" co-op experience that having good co-op isn't on my own personal list of things that make an RPG great to me. Otherwise, I agree with your point that a good co-op set-up can make for a unique RPG experience. However, the rarity of good co-op opportunities even when it's available in a game and because some games are - only in my opinion of course - best played as single-player only experiences is why I don't think that BGII can be considered vastly better than, say, Bloodlines based solely on the implementation of co-op.

Nerevarine said:

I certainly don't want to completely discount the fun and enjoyment of good co-op play, but it's because of the difficulties you mentioned in putting together a "proper" co-op experience that having good co-op isn't on my own personal list of things that make an RPG great to me. Otherwise, I agree with your point that a good co-op set-up can make for a unique RPG experience. However, the rarity of good co-op opportunities even when it's available in a game and because some games are - only in my opinion of course - best played as single-player only experiences is why I don't think that BGII can be considered vastly better than, say, Bloodlines based solely on the implementation of co-op.

Click to expand...

I agree with that.

I don't really think there's a way to measure the quality of the cooperative experience, because it's so dependent on who you play with - and how you go about it in general.

In fact, measuring the quality of any game in a wholesome manner is pretty futile - except when it's a clear case of personal taste. Only tangible things like technical quality and stability are possible to measure with meaningful certainty, and even then the PC platform makes that a challenge.

Personally, I would never rate BG2 that high, because I've never played it much. To me, it was too linear from the beginning - which is a huge no-no in an "epic" CRPG in my mind. I hear that it opens up later, though still not on par with BG - but since I was bored before then - it's not something I can really speak about with any certainty.

I'll eventually retry it, and maybe I'll end up loving it. I was a big fan of Bioware up until KotOR - so I'm sure it's fantastic. They're still great developers for a certain kind of experience - but I can't help but think about what their games COULD be, rather than what they are.

I always liked BG1 more, maybe because it was the first to play. Also the freedom and "adventuring"-feeling as well.


And this is the biggest reason, free and huge world.

Actually Dungeon Lords most be the best RPG ever…. I compared it to fatal labyrinth, forge of faith, and Legend of Gaia, and it was definetely better than those.

I always liked BG1 more, maybe because it was the first to play. Also the freedom and "adventuring"-feeling as well.

Click to expand...

Precisely

Though, as I said, I never got to the supposedly "non-linear" part of BG2.

I also happen to love playing D&D games from the beginning, with low-level characters - because I get great pleasure from building them and experiencing the growth of power. I prefer getting my ass kicked in the beginning and "overcoming" the challenge through a good mix of contributing party members and what not.

Baldur's Gate 2 is the KING, that's a well accepted fact from most people who have played every rpg out there.

Fallout 2 with the Restoration Project comes as second best for me.

Then Planescape: Torment and Chrono Trigger.

I'm all for Ultima VII complete, but I think BG2 is a fair pick as a winner. Especially with those antagonists.

Ergonpandilus said:

I always liked BG1 more, maybe because it was the first to play. Also the freedom and "adventuring"-feeling as well.
And this is the biggest reason, free and huge world.

Click to expand...

Agree that I liked that aspect more. I loved the overall 'feel' of BG1 more than BG2. It was a bright world, which you don't see often in RPG's. Overall though, I do think BG2 was a better game, but I liked the fell of BG1 more.

DArtagnan said:

Precisely

Though, as I said, I never got to the supposedly "non-linear" part of BG2.

I also happen to love playing D&D games from the beginning, with low-level characters - because I get great pleasure from building them and experiencing the growth of power. I prefer getting my ass kicked in the beginning and "overcoming" the challenge through a good mix of contributing party members and what not.

Click to expand...

And music and ambient sounds as well are awesome in BG1. BG2 wasn't that free and it was all about having right spells (Breach, Dispel Magic, True Seeing etc) in memory. In BG1 there isn't that many spells, but oh boy those spells are powerful, like you can basically kill village full of Xvarts with a fireball. What I did miss was more "utility spells", like Infravision, Good Berry, Knock, Clairvoyance and so on that don't really have real purpose (offensive).

And I loved how you start as nobody at level 1 getting killed easily by a single wolf. Yet at the end (at level ~9) you are very powerful and can easily beat most of the opponents. And lots of NPCs to pick up in your party as well, though they are not as "Talk Active" as they are in BG2.

Lot places in BG1 bring fond memories to my mind, areas like: Candle Keep, Beregost, Nashkell Mines, Peldvale, Lighthouse, Cloakwood, Gnoll Stronghold and of course the huge city of Baldur's Gate. Would love to re-visit those places again …



Fallout 2 wouldn't be that bad choice either, it was ranked by Finnish computer forum members as the best game ever, beating easily the second (Half-Life) and the third (Diablo II) positions. BG 2 ended up in position 5.

Baldur's gate was the first RPG I played (in fact I'd only played Doom and Duke Nukem before then, wasn't a big gamer) - so it holds a special place in my memory.
I enjoyed BG2 more though - it was just so huge, so much to see and do, great enemies (illithids, drow, sahuagin etc), memorable villains/NPC's (I'm glad Khalid exited quickly though ;-) … Of course, my first DnD campaign was Forgotten Realms so I relished the chance to experience a game that placed me there. I agree that many other games have done individual aspects better (like ToEE with turn-based DnD engine) - but BG2 still holds its own, many years on. I can' really say its the "best RPG ever" - there are many I have not played. But its one RPG can I can replay every couple of years and still enjoy hugely.

Saxon1974 said:

It's pretty telling about the state of the mainstream gaming press that five years after release now they are criticizing Oblivion for all of its flaws, yet upon release it was almost perfect across the board best game ever..

Click to expand...

Actually, what that says is that Oblivion is still considered one of the greatest games ever. Which is sad.

Baldurs Gate, eh? Great game…perhaps one of the best. No, seriously.

Still, it`s irrelevant, because you KILLED TURN BASED COMBAT Bioware, and IT WILL NEVER BE FORGOTTEN

Best ever or not, it's certainly my all time favorite RPG. What I don't understand is why we don't hear talk about a BGIII. With Atari doing Daggerdale I guess we will have to wait yet another year to hear something...

BG2 is one of those games where despite having not-so-great parts (like the game system) the whole is really good.

Top 10 CRPGs of all time

My top 10

1) Planescape Torment
this one is like a novel with wonderful characters
2) Wizardry 6, 7, 8
the best turn based combat party rpg triology ever
3) Albion
perfect blend of Wizardry and Ultima - superb story
4) Ultima 7 - all parts & Ultima Underworld 1+2
the Grandfather of all living worlds
5) Might & Magic 2-7
great turn based series, with many riddles and puzzles
6) Fallout 1+2
this game is simply fun - great style
7) Gothic 1, 2 NOTR
8) Baldur's Gate 2 + Throne of Baal
Re-Invention of the good old "Gold Box Games"
9) Jagged Alliance 1, Deadly Games, 2 + Deidranna Lives / Urban Chaos / Wildfire
the very best strategy combat rpg
10) System Shock 1+2
the best rpg with all other humans dead

Honorable Mentions:
Betrayal at Krondor, Genforge1-3, Avernum(=Exile)1-4, Vampire - the Masquerade, NWN 1+2, Nordland triology, Evil Islands, Daggerfall, KOTOR 1, Dungeon Master 1+2, Ambermoon, Amberstar, Icewind Dale, Deus Ex, Bards Tale 2, Darklands, Wasteland …

I have to stop …

Click to expand...

New entries: Fallout New Vegas, Drakensang- Am Fluss der Zeit, Genforge 4, Avernum 5-6 …

HiddenX said:

….
New entries: Fallout New Vegas, Drakensang- Am Fluss der Zeit, Genforge 4, Avernum 5-6 …

Click to expand...

A third Drakensang? Can someone stop them develop RPG that fast? I also dislike so much this Japan like approach to develop and release the game first for a country and much later make the other releases. I suppose it's a good way to have a more solid and more bug safe international release but it's still a bit tedious.

I don't remember what was my last list in this top ten thread but there's a high chance that Divinity 2 with top quite high.

For Baldur's Gate 2 the story killed a bit the game for me and also the fights didn't work that well for me and they have been a lot improved in the expansion but you can't consider it the same game.

Unlike what mention the arcticle, like in DAO, you can make Power Build making ridiculous all battles or most but anyway even in DAO it's only most too. I do agree DAO battle system has more holes coming in part from its ambition level and its youth. But for me there's zero comparison, DAO fight system is a clear winner, much more creative, plenty more tricks, many more skills that are really different, and the major weakness ie to have some hole it's a rather pointless argument, just don't exploit those holes if you don't like.

Nerevarine said:

Now that's a perfect example of how subjective the debate is. To you, having co-op for the entire single-player campaign is a really great feature, making BGII an awesome RPG experience. But for myself and others with similar tastes, I could care less about having co-op in an RPG. It is a pretty cool feature to have, but I play RPGs for the immersion of the story and the game world; having other people in the world sort of breaks that immersion. So for my own personal preference of becoming immersed in single-player RPGs, I don't think that the stellar implementation of full co-op makes BGII the "best RPG ever." So which one of us is right? Well, neither of us, because our personal tastes and preferences dictate our own subjective opinions, making the argument of which RPG is "the best" pointless.

Click to expand...

Back in the day people played D&D with some paper and a D20. Having the option to play the Baldurs Gate campaign on your computer with up to 6 people is keeping the foundation of D&D more intact. I'm sure many would argue multiplayer is the very heart of the game. How much fun is singleplayer pen and paper? Its kinda like that with me and singleplayer cRPG I enjoy them but I'd have enjoyed them more sharing the experience.
MMORPGS somehow all miss the target yet people want a good multiplayer campaign so much they all play the only options available and these games make money so the next game emulates it exactly and we're not getting any real new games....
Pretty much BG2 or IWD2 was the last of the good ones. There was a glimmer of hope with Dragon Age announced, but it turned into a console game with multiplayer totally removed and cinema added.

I'd also agree BG1 had a better feel to it especially since it was the first ADND game to come out in years. I guess BG1 had the feeling of a forest to start then ended with a city feel which BG2 continued with and expanded on. BG1 had lots of houses to enter but no events in them where bg2 most placed had an event.

SirJames said:

BG1 had lots of houses to enter but no events in them where bg2 most placed had an event.

Click to expand...

Well most BG1 houses had something special for you to do, a NPC to find, an important information to get, some more information about some rumors, and so on. For me BG2 never build the feeling of a town it was too abstract, I remember just a sort of arena and few short area not really connected. Beregost only is enough to build better the feeling of a town, not to mention BG town.

I don't like the idea that every house is important and is related to (main) quest, that's how it is in Dragon Effect. If you go randomly visit five apartments in your block, I'm sure you won't that much interesting stuff from ALL of them.

Generally it seems that most of us knows what makes a VERY good RPG and so does the developers, but it's just those few producers (the guys with the money) that are not agreeing and want to go with "main stream" (read console dumbing-down).

I'm sure we're going to see a big hit coming from outside of US that gives a big surprise to RPG fans. Much like The Witcher did, game that dared to be different.

I was hugely surprised (positively) with StarCraft II from Blizzard. I wish same kind of "renewal" happening to RPG, taking out the best from the old and polish it to perfect.