A religious puzzle: Stigmatas

You missed my point. I was saying that choice is still there even if you dotn want to choose the wrong options.

zahratustra said:

I keep repeating "SANE". No sane person chooses the eternal damnation over the eternal bliss.

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Then there must be a LOT of INSANE people not only in the world today, but also throughout history. Consider the Jews in the Bible, for example, they actually SAW several miracles, yet still disobeyed God and worshiped Idols. They actually chose NOT to follow their God even after the miracles of Egypt and the Red Sea!! Actually the Bible says that seeing miracles doesn't cause people to choose God. Think of all those people who saw the miracles that Jesus performed and yet in the end they called out 'Crucify Him'!!

Well... there are three explanations: either Biblical Jews were indeed insane or, maybe, they have seen through the smoke and mirrors of those miracles. Or, possibly, nothing like that has happened at all.
It's kind of difficult to verify since we have only one biased source. And it's not even a primary one.

I think it's a given that Jesus existed. We have outside sources from Tactius, Pliny and other 1st century historians to verify this.

Miracles are another topic entirely though. The outside sources mention that he caused uproar, was a trouble maker, a wise teacher and healed people but miracles aren't mentioned. Although, given how quickly Christianity grew and how it spread and converted the entire Roman Empire (which had formally oppressed it), one could argue that something extraordinary (such as a miracle) must have been done for so many people to convert and to become martyrs for.

There are also fulfilled prophecies of the Old Testament especially in resonance with the Christ figure of Jesus.

However, given that there were Jews who didn't follow apparently after seeing miracles, we can also argue that they didn't occur at all.

My line of thinking on God and religion mainly falls in line with deism. Hell, I think I could consider myself a full deist as this point. I don't believe God interacts with this world. I don't believe Jesus was God and therefore miracles aren't a part of my world view. However, I can't say for sure that they never happened in the past but there's certainly no empirical evidence to say that they did either.

I'm pretty certain however that miracles don't occur in the present day and I've never had a prayer answered. Anecdotes aren't evidence for me.

Perhaps Christianity grew simply because of the sound teachings of Jesus who still continues to inspire generations with his words.

I actually identified as a complete Christian last year (as you'll find in one of these threads back then) but my views have changed since then. I tried religion, religious groups and churches and just don't "get it" as they do. They claim to have this "connection" and "relationship" with God. Well, I don't feel it and prayer seems futile to me.

Basically…



You could imagine how uncomfortable I felt when I was at a Christian group and they ended it with us all praying for each other. Another time at a Church I explored, they ended the service with people reaching their hands out towards each other as if they were summoning power…

…oh and another time, they were singing this song and this woman got carried away with a certain phrase and kept repeating it till the point where she was the only person in the church singing it and very out of tune…

But outside of this, most religious people I've met seem to be completely normal outside of their worship.

I think this "connection" is the same thing people get by meditating as prayer can be the same thing where you can clear your thoughts. Unless you have that mind-set, you won't experience it.

Now don't get me wrong, I would love to call myself a Christian deist but unless I can truly follow the teachings of Jesus (which I can't right now as I'm enjoying sin too much), I think just going with the label of deist will be appropriate.

Incidentally, I LOVE discussing and debating religion with everyone. Atheists, Christians, Muslims, Jews, Hindus, agnostics and other deists. I once thought of myself as religious but I guess I just love discussing religion and realize that I have never really been religious. I tried to make a habit of keeping away from religious debates but I just can't help it when I see one going on in a comment section.

Especially love it when an atheist comes up with the classic "you believe in talking snakes and 6 day creation you stupid xtian!" and I'm like "nah man, I'm a deist." and they're like "shit, what can I say to that??? Um…thanks for Voltaire BTW…" XD

And then you have the smug agnostic who just sits on the fence throwing peanuts at everyone on each side and since the little bastard isn't making any claim, he's not required to prove anything "lol, I dunno!" is his answer. He'll argue that empirical science is agnostic to the idea of God as far as empirical evidence is concerned and he'd be right too although it'll be a different story in philosophy.

Guess I should stop here.