On parents right to raise their children according to their own beliefs

Damian Mahadevan · May 25, 2009

JemyM said:
If nothing you do matters, if you get love no matter what, what use is that love? That love has no value since it doesn't make a difference between right and wrong. If love isn't a reward for good behavior, it looses it's value.

What if they don't take the chance to improve their ways? If you simply try to love the worst of humanity, no matter what they do, what message do you send? What message do you send to those who are doing bad deeds and get loved for it? What message do you send to those who are doing good deeds and get as much love as those who do bad? You reward bad deeds and fail to reward good deeds.

I believe diplomatic forgiveness is a great and important tool for peace and understanding, but it needs to be under the condition that those who are given a second chance agree to change their ways, else you are simply give support for bad deeds. And once in awhile, there are those who do not deserve forgiveness, because they are best served as an icon of what shall never happen again. Like the Nazi party, or Josef Stalin. But to make sure it never happens again, it's important to ask the question "why" rather than simply saying "they were evil". But loving them? That's just evil.

The final outcome is all what matters in the end. Love should be used to change people for the better. If you had a 20% chance you could change someone for the better, would you not take it?

Rithrandil · May 25, 2009

Damian Mahadevan said:
The final outcome is all what matters in the end. Love should be used to change people for the better. If you had a 20% chance you could change someone for the better, would you not take it?

Not if they were evil, vile sadistic thugs. Sometimes you need to destroy your enemies for the greater good.

Damian Mahadevan · May 25, 2009

I disagree with your philosophy then. I find it morally wrong.

Rithrandil · May 25, 2009

Damian Mahadevan said:
That is because you dont try enough.

No, it's because I'm a realist. Why should I love these people? They don't deserve it. Loving evil or those who commit vile acts is not virtuous. It is stupidity at best, evil at worst.

Damian Mahadevan said:
Well the school system in the non third world parts are very thoguh and it is harder to get to become say a doctor in india than it is in Australia or probably the USA. Because not everyone can be doctors and engineers, there needs to be a balance. Hence why when they come at a young age they become doctors or engineers. And hence why you see a lot of doctors and engineers that are of indian or asian descent in our medical centres.

I'm still just curious because you claimed "most" Chinese, Indian, and Sri Lankan kids end up in those careers. So I want to see your educational statistics about how most children in those countries do that.

I could easily say most Indians turn out to be 7-11 operators, because out of the 40 or 50 7-11's I have entered into during my life, all but two have been run by Indians.

Damian Mahadevan said:
Well i agree it isnt the primary reason, but it definitely factors in. As my second link shows the comparison between divorced and non divorced kids.

Your second link also said that most allegations of spousal abuse are false. And of course it's a factor, I'm not arguing divorce is super awesome for a kid, I'm arguing sometimes its better then the alternative of living in a loveless household.

Damian Mahadevan · May 25, 2009

Rithrandil said:
No, it's because I'm a realist. Why should I love these people? They don't deserve it. Loving evil or those who commit vile acts is not virtuous. It is stupidity at best, evil at worst.

But the more people you make better, the more chance that goodness will rub off on someone else. And thus making the world a better place overall.

I'm still just curious because you claimed "most" Chinese, Indian, and Sri Lankan kids end up in those careers. So I want to see your educational statistics about how most children in those countries do that.

I could easily say most Indians turn out to be 7-11 operators, because out of the 40 or 50 7-11's I have entered into during my life, all but two have been run by Indians.

Maybe there is a correlation for your experience too? I have no statistics.

Your second link also said that most allegations of spousal abuse are false. And of course it's a factor, I'm not arguing divorce is super awesome for a kid, I'm arguing sometimes its better then the alternative of living in a loveless household.

The part of the second link i am referring to is the one from

Source: GROWING UP IN CANADA, National Longitudinal Survey of Children and Youth (Human Resources Development Canada, Statistics Canada, Catalogue no. 89-550-MPE, no.1, November 1996, p. 91)

Surely you arent claiming bias on that.

Rithrandil · May 25, 2009

Damian Mahadevan said:
But the more people you make better, the more chance that goodness will rub off on someone else. And thus making the world a better place overall.

And some people will never change. And sometimes you have to end threats and put down evil. Not everyone is good, not everyone is "redeemable", and sometimes people need to be punished.

Damian Mahadevan said:
Maybe there is a correlation for your experience too? I have no statistics.

I'm just not going to rely on stereotypes like that, but once again, your claim that "most Chinese, Indians, and Sri Lankans" end up as doctors or engineers is a HUGE one, and since that was one of your key points about why your society is better than ours and why divorce is never a good idea and why loveless families should stay together, I'd really like to see the data on this because I really doubt it's true.

Damian Mahadevan said:
The part of the second link i am referring to is the one from Surely you arent claiming bias on that.

No idea, but my point stands. The site is questionable but I'm not arguing divorce is a super awesome happy fun thing.

Damian Mahadevan said:
I disagree with your philosophy then. I find it morally wrong.

I find your philosophy horrible naive and quite frankly, evil. You apparently aren't as bad as a Quaker is, but your philosophy definitely supports standing by and doing nothing while evil runs free. I put you in the Neville Chamberlain school of the world, basically.

Damian Mahadevan · May 25, 2009

Rithrandil said:
And some people will never change. And sometimes you have to end threats and put down evil. Not everyone is good, not everyone is "redeemable", and sometimes people need to be punished.

And some people do chance even the most sociopathic ones can change if given a little love and forgiveness.

I'm just not going to rely on stereotypes like that, but once again, your claim that "most Chinese, Indians, and Sri Lankans" end up as doctors or engineers is a HUGE one, and since that was one of your key points about why your society is better than ours and why divorce is never a good idea and why loveless families should stay together, I'd really like to see the data on this because I really doubt it's true.

I was looking for a study either way of GP's, but couldnt find anything either way.

No idea, but my point stands. The site is questionable but I'm not arguing divorce is a super awesome happy fun thing.

fair enough.

I find your philosophy horrible naive and quite frankly, evil. You apparently aren't as bad as a Quaker is, but your philosophy definitely supports standing by and doing nothing while evil runs free. I put you in the Neville Chamberlain school of the world, basically.

But I said I wouldn't stand by while evil runs free?

Rithrandil · May 25, 2009

Damian Mahadevan said:
And some people do chance even the most sociopathic ones can change if given a little love and forgiveness.

And most won't.

Damian Mahadevan said:
But I said I wouldn't stand by while evil runs free?

That's why I said you weren't as bad as a quaker, because on some level you recognize the need for force to stop evil.

Damian Mahadevan · May 25, 2009

Rithrandil said:
And most won't.

That's why I said you weren't as bad as a quaker, because on some level you recognize the need for force to stop evil.

I see a contradiction in this. You say you want to stop evil, yet you cant see that you are only spreading hatred and evil when you pass judgement on people like you are doing now. IMO the only way to stop evil is to spread love even to those that dont deserve it in the hopes that if you keep doing it you makes the world a better place and not of evil.

Rithrandil · May 25, 2009

Damian Mahadevan said:
I see a contradiction in this. You say you want to stop evil, yet you cant see that you are only spreading hatred and evil when you pass judgement on people like you are doing now. IMO the only way to stop evil is to spread love even to those that dont deserve it in the hopes that if you keep doing it you makes the world a better place and not of evil.

I feel perfectly content in passing judgment on, say ... rapists, murderers, war mongerers, genocidal dictators, etc.

You can send them a gift basket with flowers if you want, I'll be hoping someone sends them a lethal injection or a bomb. Violence is bad, but it's not as bad as allowing things to go unchecked.

JemyM · May 25, 2009

Damian Mahadevan said:
The final outcome is all what matters in the end. Love should be used to change people for the better. If you had a 20% chance you could change someone for the better, would you not take it?

Not if there was a greater chance that support could change the situation for the worse and cause harm to others. You are responsible for the bad deeds you let go before your eyes while you are doing nothing.

Damian Mahadevan · May 25, 2009

JemyM said:
Not if there was a greater chance that support could change the situation for the worse and cause harm to others. You are responsible for the bad deeds you let go before your eyes while you are doing nothing.

You are saying that you cannot both support a person and stop evil the evil they do? I disagree with that idea that you cannot do both.

On parents right to raise their children according to their own beliefs

Damian Mahadevan

Keeper of the Watch

Rithrandil

SasqWatch

Damian Mahadevan

Keeper of the Watch

Rithrandil

SasqWatch

Damian Mahadevan

Keeper of the Watch

Rithrandil

SasqWatch

Damian Mahadevan

Keeper of the Watch

Rithrandil

SasqWatch

Damian Mahadevan

Keeper of the Watch

Rithrandil

SasqWatch

JemyM

Okay, now roll sanity.

Damian Mahadevan

Keeper of the Watch