Pillars of Eternity - Thoughts & Impressions

Drithius said:

Why, oh why can't I remain stealthed on a rogue if nearby party members engage a target. This pretty much forces a rogue into 1v1 scenarios if you want to use backstab at all.

It's stuff like this that makes the combat a real annoyance at times. Up there with spells such as charm categorized as 'combat-only'.

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Yeah, playing as a rogue I thought this, too. I guess it has to do with their approach to rogues. They said they are not supposed to just fit into the classic D&D definition. They are more like fighters who like to fight dirty and just want to win and stay alive. The sneaking and stealing stuff is on the side.

From a game mechanic approach I guess they wanted to eliminate micro-management like positioning for stealth attacks, so they went the way of the status effects as qualifiers.

That said I really dislike that my rogue looses her first-strike/stealth-strike capabilities if another char initiates combat.

I'd be ok with that - the notion that it's supposed to be a part of some grand vision for stealth gameplay - if they had tossed out the backstab talent or given it to the rogue for free. As it stands right now, it's a complete waste of a talent point.

The thing is, though, it's not part of a grand vision. Stealth is a halfassed part of the game that they want to revisit in a patch or xpac.

Adam Brennecke said:

The party stealth stuff has nothing to do with anything you think it has to do with. We want to change it and our current plan is to get around to it for the patch/expansion. Any changes requires time to refactoring the system from the original design. We felt like it wasn't worth the time investment (time away from bug fixing) because it doesn't make how you play the stealth game that much different, and refactoring at this time would introduce many new bugs into the system. Does that make sense? Even if it takes a only a few days to do, that could mean 20-30+ bugs don't get fixed.

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That "how you play the stealth game" part kind of made me chuckle… there is no stealth game right now You can set up autopause to prevent agroing newly discovered enemies; meanwhile, sending in a solo stealthed rogue is suicide. The only time I "stealth" is not for stealthing but for roaming around a map to use the mechanics skill.

@Nerevarine

"One of the things I hated most about BG2 was that many encounters had one "right" way of getting past them."

I couldn't disagree with you more, ie. the insane variety of spells, the freedom in non-combat actions, the ability to exploit mechanics in general is pretty cool and thats a good thing. I hope as I play more of Pillars that the game allows more creative problem solving than appears the case now. I'm still somewhat optimistic.

Darkheart said:

Yeah, playing as a rogue I thought this, too. I guess it has to do with their approach to rogues. They said they are not supposed to just fit into the classic D&D definition. They are more like fighters who like to fight dirty and just want to win and stay alive. The sneaking and stealing stuff is on the side.

From a game mechanic approach I guess they wanted to eliminate micro-management like positioning for stealth attacks, so they went the way of the status effects as qualifiers.

That said I really dislike that my rogue looses her first-strike/stealth-strike capabilities if another char initiates combat.

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Except there is still micromanagement in the game. For sneak attack you need to have some debuff on enemy which is harder to get correct than some positioning (due to needing to mouse over enemies and read the description that shows up). Also you can flank your enemies to get flanking bonuses which again takes micro management.

And the granddaddy of them all, Backstab. You need to be 2m away to use it which guess.. takes micromanagement to use and then run away alive.

Now that I have played this game for about 20h so far the game is not as good as BG1 or BG2 but I am having more fun than in IWD1 or IWD2. It is still the best RPG I played since BG2:ToB. By the time I finish it, this might change.

For me it lacks that freedom to explore anywhere from the start from BG1 and the combat is weaker as well as the spell system. They did storytelling better than BG1 (so far) and the main story is so far more interesting. But none of the companions I found so far are as interesting as Xzar, Minsc and some others you meet early.

Compared to BG2, it is only better in one thing: you don't start in a big city but you can explore the wilderness from the start.

26 hours in (level 5 party of 6 now) and so much to do :-S Loving the game, but some comments on the less enjoyable aspects so far:

1) I'm having great difficulty judging combat encounter level. E.g. I marched through a dungeon, killing all in my way (seemed level appropriate)…got to a cut-scene, which auto-frogmarched my party (I thought they'd stopped doing that!?) right next to this guy, his cipher, priests etc - fight opens, I loose all my queued attacks (they seemed to have been cancelled) and then they drop "hell" on my pary, paralyzing/stunning most people etc etc. Things went downhill from there. Some wanring text/banter from a pary member would have been a good way of signalling you were about to bite off my than you could chew

2) …not being able to "pre-buff" (or even drink a poton!?) really means you're screwed in some cases, even if you know whats coming and want to be able to prepare (why can't I scout ahead, determine the threat and take precautions? Did that plenty in BG1/2…I really don't like that design decision). At least I can drop a fireball on people outside of combat.

3) XPs….I killed an enemy party, and seemed to get no XPs? That makes me sad. Exploring XPs are insignificant, and everything is driven by story XPs - so to level up you need to follow the main story (I assume). I didn't like this decision, and I stil don't.

4) Damage reduction - I don't understand the numbers. Everyone/thing seems to have way too much. E.g.
"DR: 15
crush: 10, fire 8"
How do I read that? Do you take 15 off physical damage only? and how then does that affect crush? Is it an additional 10 that comes off on top of the 15? Or only 10? And fire? Neither the manual or in-game cyclopedia explain it clearly (To me at least)

5) Fighter seem very boring (and not very 'tank'y'). I'm using the default fighter you meet (Eider). He's only good to knock down opponents, and otherwise does poor daamge (I have tried varoius weapons, qualities etc). As a fighter he should have a general DR penetration feat from early or something to increase his damage output.

6) Immersion breaking design decisions:
I think the camping supplies is a good limit - but being able to "camp" anywhere (even outside a room full of baddies) is immersion destroying. Also, crafting has been simplified too much and being able to do it on the trot at any time is again immersion breaking. Ditto for "stash"…an infinite stash for loot? How? Yeah, its convenient, but still not what I would have chosen.

7) Questoon: how do you find traps? I have a high perception character with good stealth (well, reasoably) and now I'm setting of traps in "search" mode all the time. What stats/skills determine this? Mechanics/stealth? I have no rogue.

Anyway, despite this gripes I love the game - and it seems pretty huge, have already speant 26 hours and only just arrived at Defiance bay.

booboo said:

5) Fighter seem very boring (and not very 'tank'y'). I'm using the default fighter you meet (Eider). He's only good to knock down opponents, and otherwise does poor daamge (I have tried varoius weapons, qualities etc). As a fighter he should have a general DR penetration feat from early or something to increase his damage output.

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I don't know. Eider is my best tank, if you define tank as holding agro and absorbing damage. Put on his defensive ability with a big shield, and he stays alive better than anyone else. Very useful. I have another fighter I created. She is 2-H and does fine in the damage department. I switch her to sword and board when I need her to stay alive better.

booboo said:

6) Immersion breaking design decisions: ...Ditto for "stash"…an infinite stash for loot? How? Yeah, its convenient, but still not what I would have chosen.

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I believe there is an option to turn off the stash being accessible everywhere.

booboo said:

7) Questoon: how do you find traps? I have a high perception character with good stealth (well, reasoably) and now I'm setting of traps in "search" mode all the time. What stats/skills determine this? Mechanics/stealth? I have no rogue.

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Mechanics skill determines chance to find and disarm traps. The in-game description for Mechanics:

"Traps and locks can be a problem for even the toughest adventurers, draining their resources and maiming or killing those who are unfortunate enough to trigger an unseen floor plate. The Mechanics skill makes it easier to open locks and find and disable traps. Additionally, any character can use the Mechanics skill to place traps of their own. The higher the Mechanics skill, the more accurate the trap. In conversations and scripted interactions, Mechanics can be used to activate or disable a variety of machines."

It seems (to my surprise) that mechanics determine if yuo find hidden objects/traps. I made a rogue as my main (which I seem to do in a lot of games). At first I was going to restart as I'm unhappy with the rogue fighting ability (but I mostly been focusing on using him with a bow). Anyways he has very high mechanics and I find a *lot* of hidden items/traps. One thing I have not done is try to use traps to my advantage.

Ferris_bg said:

Let's see how long BG2 will be king…

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It all depends on personal appreciation ! In my opinion BG and BG2 never were kings ; two excellent cRPGs, probably in my top ten of all time contenders but none were in my personal top three list.

booboo said:

3) XPs….I killed an enemy party, and seemed to get no XPs? That makes me sad. Exploring XPs are insignificant, and everything is driven by story XPs - so to level up you need to follow the main story (I assume).

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You get XP for killing monsters the first few times for each type until you know enough about this type, which is represented by the codex entry getting filled.
And you get XP from solving side quests as well.
So you can level up without following the main story (to a certain extend).

4) Damage reduction - I don't understand the numbers. Everyone/thing seems to have way too much. E.g.
"DR: 15
crush: 10, fire 8"
How do I read that? Do you take 15 off physical damage only? and how then does that affect crush? Is it an additional 10 that comes off on top of the 15? Or only 10? And fire? Neither the manual or in-game cyclopedia explain it clearly (To me at least)

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Would like to know this as well.

5) Fighter seem very boring (and not very 'tank'y'). I'm using the default fighter you meet (Eider). He's only good to knock down opponents, and otherwise does poor daamge (I have tried varoius weapons, qualities etc). As a fighter he should have a general DR penetration feat from early or something to increase his damage output.

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Hm... with Might 17 he should do some damage. Which melee fighter does more damage in your party?

7) Questoon: how do you find traps? I have a high perception character with good stealth (well, reasoably) and now I'm setting of traps in "search" mode all the time. What stats/skills determine this? Mechanics/stealth?

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Mechanics. You don't need a Rogue.

Sounds like the consensus is that combat is weak, or at least needs some serious tweaking. That's what I expected and is a definite turn-off for me. Doesn't anyone else play games for the pure joy of killing things?

screeg said:

Sounds like the consensus is that combat is weak, or at least needs some serious tweaking. That's what I expected and is a definite turn-off for me. Doesn't anyone else play games for the pure joy of killing things?

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I was finding that the concensus was that there were a surprising number of people who will never be happy with any game ... they will hold up current games against mythical standards, without realizing that had they been around when THOSE games came out they would have done the exact same thing ...

Just a heads up: there's apparently a rather nasty bug in the game, but you can avoid it by not double clicking to equip party members.

booboo said:

4) Damage reduction - I don't understand the numbers. Everyone/thing seems to have way too much. E.g.
"DR: 15
crush: 10, fire 8"
How do I read that? Do you take 15 off physical damage only? and how then does that affect crush? Is it an additional 10 that comes off on top of the 15? Or only 10? And fire? Neither the manual or in-game cyclopedia explain it clearly (To me at least)

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I believe it means the default DR is 15 for slash, pierce and so on. For crush it provided less protection of a DR of 10.

Question 5 - what do you mean "not very tanky"? Eider is a typical tank so his low damage output shouldn't be surprising. And, beside knockdown, his "Defend" talent is quite useful too.
Question 7 - Mechanics booboo.

booboo said:

4) Damage reduction - I don't understand the numbers. Everyone/thing seems to have way too much. E.g.
"DR: 15
crush: 10, fire 8"
How do I read that? Do you take 15 off physical damage only? and how then does that affect crush? Is it an additional 10 that comes off on top of the 15? Or only 10? And fire? Neither the manual or in-game cyclopedia explain it clearly (To me at least).

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Damage reduction is per damage type, if a damage type is not specified it means it gets the base DR of the item (15 in your example). If you have a magical item that isn't an armor/clothing, that DR bonus get added to the armor value.

In your example, if you are attacked by crush damage only 10 is shrug off and not 15. The UI should probably show all damage type all the time.

txa1265 said:

I was finding that the concensus was that there were a surprising number of people who will never be happy with any game … they will hold up current games against mythical standards, without realizing that had they been around when THOSE games came out they would have done the exact same thing …

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If a game with battles every 20ft has weak combat mechanics, that's going to be a serious concern for many people. It has nothing to do with "never being happy."

There are an unsurprising number of people with blind adulation.

screeg said:

Doesn't anyone else play games for the pure joy of killing things?

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Not really, I don't see myself playing Diablo ever again and bears in DA3 are definetly not joy and not fun.

txa1265 said:

I was finding that the concensus was that there were a surprising number of people who will never be happy with any game…

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For some reason I believe it's caused by metacritic type scales.
I'm not saying that turning it into "avoidware, slightly better than rubbish, average, above average and masterpiece" would help, but would be a better step from metacritic trolling with 0/10 on a game just because DRM is uPlay or because the game lacks of voiceovers.

Anyone else getting the endless SFX repeating bug? Sounds like the tooltip opening sound, repeating endlessly. I tried the suggested fix (reloading) and it stops for a while, then starts up again no matter what I do. I can turn off sound effects but that's it... not a great option.

Can't believe they didn't catch this bug.

Damage output has nothing to do with class or stats and all to do with weapon they are using. If you want big damage, go with a big weapon. Eder has a one handed + shield setup. He is limited to one handed weapon damage and suffers accuracy penalty on top of it because of shields. Accuracy penalty means he will more often graze or miss so that means even less damage.