Pope Francis describes ‘ideological Christians’ as a ‘serious illness’

Pladio · January 23, 2015

Corwin said:
I actually wasn't talking about Jesus, though you are technically wrong in your statement; Messianic Jews (and they ARE Jews) do believe Jesus is God. Rather, I was referring to YHWH whom all Christians and Jews can agree about!!

Well, not really. Most religious Jews do not consider Messianic Jews as Jews, but as Christians.

The reason for this is that the Trinity which many Christian denominations believe in (Jehovah's witnesses don't as far as I know) is seen as idolatry and thus not compatible. Since Messianic Jews believe in the Trinity, this is the case.
Believing in YWVH and Jesus as Gods is ultimately seen as polytheism for Jews and many Muslims feel the same way.

As in traditional Jewish objections to Christian theology, opponents of Messianic Judaism hold that Christian proof texts, such as prophecies in the Hebrew Bible purported to refer the Messiah's suffering and death, have been taken out of context and misinterpreted.[137] Jewish theology rejects the idea that the Messiah, or any human being, is a divinity. Belief in the Trinity is considered idolatrous by most rabbinic authorities,[138] though there is a minority view that it constitutes shituf (literally, "partnership"), an association of other individuals with the God of Israel. While shituf is, according to some opinions, permitted for gentiles, it is considered idolatrous for Jews.[22][139] Further, Judaism does not view the role of the Messiah to be the salvation of the world from its sins, an integral teaching of Christianity.[104][140]

In this regards Muslims and Jews are much closer than Jews and Christians.

Corwin · January 24, 2015

I obviously read different Jewish literature from you!!

Damian · January 24, 2015

How can the Trinity/Godhead be considered idolatrous when they you the word "gods" to refer to YHWH?

Corwin · January 24, 2015

People don't understand the concept that it's ONE God, but 3 persons with 3 different functions. There is no good analogy for this, but one of the better (though limited) ones is of ice, water and steam.

ChienAboyeur · January 24, 2015

Very hard to see why they cant understand that, in a context of the one god thing.
This should come easily.

FretRider · January 24, 2015

Corwin said:
People don't understand the concept that it's ONE God, but 3 persons with 3 different functions. There is no good analogy for this, but one of the better (though limited) ones is of ice, water and steam.

It is a complex concept and people are dumb.

That is one of the reasons Mohammed had such great success when he did away with it. Specially being that he mostly invaded Byzantine territory were priests were mostly scholars and cultured people.

It is easier to comvert people to a religion when they are actually intellectually capable of understanding its theology.

Pladio · January 27, 2015

Corwin said:
I obviously read different Jewish literature from you!!

Damian said:
How can the Trinity/Godhead be considered idolatrous when they you the word "gods" to refer to YHWH?

Corwin said:
People don't understand the concept that it's ONE God, but 3 persons with 3 different functions. There is no good analogy for this, but one of the better (though limited) ones is of ice, water and steam.

ChienAboyeur said:
Very hard to see why they cant understand that, in a context of the one god thing.
This should come easily.

Actually, (only) Christians understand the Trinity.
For Jews and Muslims the Trinity is seen as polytheism.

Within Christianity, the doctrine of the Trinity states that God is a single being who exists, simultaneously and eternally, as a communion of three distinct persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Within Islam however, such a concept of plurality within God is a denial of monotheism, and foreign to the revelation found in Muslim scripture. The act of ascribing partners to God, whether they be sons, daughters, or other partners, is considered to be blasphemous in Islam. The Qur'an repeatedly and firmly asserts God's absolute oneness, thus ruling out the possibility of another being sharing his sovereignty or nature.[1] However, this has not prevented later Christian scholars from questioning whether the Qur'an does reject the concept of the Trinity.[1] Yet, there has been very little doubt of this rejection by Muslims from a very early date.[1]

In Judaism, the idea of God as a duality or trinity is heretical — it is even considered by some polytheistic.[8] According to Judaic beliefs, the Torah rules out a trinitarian God in Deuteronomy (6:4): "Hear Israel, the Lord is our God, the Lord is one."

In his book A History of the Jews, Paul Johnson describes the schism between Jews and Christians caused by a divergence from this principle:

To the question, Was Jesus God or man?, the Christians therefore answered: both. After 70 AD, their answer was unanimous and increasingly emphatic. This made a complete breach with Judaism inevitable.[9]

Judaism teaches that it is heretical for any man to claim to be God, part of God, or the literal son of God. The Jerusalem Talmud (Ta'anit 2:1) states explicitly: "if a man claims to be God, he is a liar."

I have no idea what Jewish literature you have read Corwin, but it's not mainstream.

Corwin · January 28, 2015

Pladio, Christians believe in only ONE God. He has 3 aspects/functions which are found throughout the OT if you look for them. The Talmud is NOT scripture; it's the words of men. Answer me this simple question, what does scripture teach about the Messiah; what/who is He; what is His function, etc? Please don't use the Talmud.

Ripper · January 28, 2015

Well, I'm pretty sure it's all the work of men. But, if, for the sake of argument, we accept the possibility that some writings might be divine in origin, I don't see how we reasonably decide which ones are genuine, and which ones aren't.

The concept of the trinity was introduced to defend against charges of polytheism in the early centuries of the church. It is not specifically defined anywhere in the Bible. It was codified after much theological debate (and fighting) at the Council of Nicaea and Constantinople.

Corwin · January 28, 2015

While we can debate the 'divine' origins of the Bible, it is generally accepted that the Talmud is the work of various Rabbis.

Ripper · January 28, 2015

No, that's not correct.

The Talmud is based upon the Oral Torah, which Jews believe was spoken to Moses by god on Mt. Sinai. Some of it was written down in the books of moses (and became part of the Old Testament), but the rest was passed down orally, until it was eventually written down in the Talmud.

Damian · January 28, 2015

That is confusing, then how can it talk about Jesus?

Ripper · January 28, 2015

Damian said:
That is confusing, then how can it talk about Jesus?

It contains later writings too. The point is that the heart of the Talmud, the transcription of the Oral Torah, makes exactly the same claims as the books of Moses - that it is the word of God, delivered by God himself on Mt. Sinai.

Jews see the written Torah (the biblical books of Moses), and the transcription of the Oral Torah (the first book of the Talmud), as being delivered by God at the same time, and of equal importance. So it is incorrect to say that the Talmud is not a divine scripture - in the Jewish tradition it absolutely is.

Corwin · January 28, 2015

Perhaps I should have been more specific. When I refer to the Talmud, I mean what is also called the Gemara; many use the general term Talmud to refer to that alone. It is purely rabinical writings.

Ripper · January 28, 2015

That's still a bit misleading though. The second section of the Talmud, the Gemara, is written by later rabbis, but it is simply a theological analysis of the first section - which in Jewish tradition is the transcription of the direct word of god.

Corwin · January 28, 2015

I write theological analyses of both the Old and New Testaments, but I don't claim that they are divinely inspired in the same way the Bible is!!

Ripper · January 28, 2015

They don't claim the analysis is divinely inspired - but the first book and the subject of the Talmud is considered the word of God, exactly like the bible.

Imagine if the Bible had a third book, containing the later theological developments and traditions, like the specific theory of the trinity. It wouldn't become any less sacred, and suddenly be dismissed as 'the work of men'.

Pladio · January 28, 2015

Corwin said:
Pladio, Christians believe in only ONE God. He has 3 aspects/functions which are found throughout the OT if you look for them. The Talmud is NOT scripture; it's the words of men. Answer me this simple question, what does scripture teach about the Messiah; what/who is He; what is His function, etc? Please don't use the Talmud.

See Ripper's answers....

You seem to think you know much about Judaism, but you should read a lot more about it.
The Oral Torah is something most Christians are unaware of, but existed in the time of Jesus too.

For example, Hillel said the saying Jesus is famous for years before Jesus said it:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hillel_the_Elder#The_Golden_Rule

"What is hateful to you, do not do to your fellow: this is the whole Torah; the rest is the explanation; go and learn"[10]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Rule#Christianity

The "Golden Rule" has been attributed to Jesus of Nazareth, though he himself uses it to summarize the Old Testament: "Do to others what you want them to do to you. This is the meaning of the law of Moses and the teaching of the prophets"[48] (Matthew 7:12 NCV, see also Luke 6:31).

Corwin · January 28, 2015

Jesus WAS a Jew, of course He knew the Torah and its oral tradition. If you read the NT you will notice that He frequently quotes and refers to passages from the OT. Actually, everything important in the NT can be found in the Old; it's a basic principle of Biblical Hereneutics which I have lectured in.

Pladio · January 29, 2015

Corwin said:
Jesus WAS a Jew, of course He knew the Torah and its oral tradition. If you read the NT you will notice that He frequently quotes and refers to passages from the OT. Actually, everything important in the NT can be found in the Old; it's a basic principle of Biblical Hereneutics which I have lectured in.

So then he should have known what the Talmud and the Torah say ...

Jerusalem Talmud (Ta'anit 2:1) states explicitly: "if a man claims to be God, he is a liar."

As God says:

Deuteronomy 32:39
"See now that I myself am he! There is no god besides me. I put to death and I bring to life, I have wounded and I will heal, and no one can deliver out of my hand.

Isaiah 44:6
"This is what the LORD says-- Israel's King and Redeemer, the LORD Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God.

So, basically, no, according to Jewish law, tradition and scholarship, there cannot and MUST not be any other Gods.

So when Christians talk about the Trinity thinking it is in any way close to Judaism, they are completely off the mark.

Pope Francis describes ‘ideological Christians’ as a ‘serious illness’

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