Dragon Age: Inquisition - On Critics of Dorian

Sidion · July 7, 2014

Stingray said:
Many of us, 20 years ago, were right where we are now - not wanting romances in our games, period. Actually seems to be the majority opinion on RPGWatch. The only difference now is that they're making them even more awkward for the vast majority of us (minimum of 90% by your own numbers).

BTW, you joined the forum just to post this misdirected rant?

It's difficult for me to relate then I guess. I've been dealing with straight flirting and romances in games for a couple decades where most times I had no choice but to sit through the awkwardness. From my perspective Bioware games are the first time where I don't have to sit through straight romances and flirting. No awkward flirting from Miranda, Jack, Liara, etc. Unless I actually make a dialogue decision to see that. Whereas in other games these are usually forced on the player.

And not sure how my original post was misdirected or any more a rant than many of the other posts on this topic. Nor was it directed at a specific posts but a general sentiment from a few posts. I've been reading RPGWatch for a few years now just for the news. But this post I definitely had to comment on considering the vast pile of games over multiple decades that have straight romance in them, including the Witcher series. Yet I have not heard one complaint on any forums for years about the straight sexuality and story romance there. You also don't hear many complaints in RPG forums about Witchers bad voice acting or many other things (although I like their combat).

In terms of writing when I look at the text of Bioware characters dialogue there is depth and interesting concepts there that many other RPGs lack. Characters like Liara, Jack, Javik, Tali, and on and on have some deep (DEEP) conversations and character motivations that are relevant to the story. It's very hard to find more than superficial and old-reused ideas in most other games. So it makes me want to question what writing someone is comparing Bioware's too when they say it's awful writing.

About gay characters or minority characters feeling to some people like they're being forced in... How should a gay character that's part of the group be presented so that they are equal to the other characters in backstory but not "forced in"? In Mass Effect if Jacob or Wrex were gay would they feel forced because Jacob has a significant other in ME3 and Wrex talks more than once about sex? How limited in their dialogue topics does a gay character have to be so they don't seem "forced in" by some people? Personally I didn't get the sense that any of the characters felt forced. Maybe if there was a big push for more Chinese characters in RPGs. And I didn't live around many Chinese people. And I'm playing ME4 next year and suddenly there's an asian-appearing companion then I can see feeling that the character was forced in. But if you are a Chinese player or live in a multicultural area then I think the chances of it feeling forced in are a lot lower. Instead the game probably feels more inviting and believable to you. Of course there will always be exceptions, e.g. some people who are gay that have a problem with a specific gay character.

On stereotypes Kaidan and Cortez were some of the least stereotypical gay characters in a long time. Kaidan's vocal cords sounds like he eats gravel for breakfast, constantly wears armor, and trains students in combat biotics. Cortez is a sports fan, hangs out with Vega, and tinkers with ships and shuttles in his spare time. They're a little bit tougher than Joker and Thane for example. I would have actually expected Thane to be the stereotypical gay rogue/thief. Although there's nothing wrong with a character being stereotypical. Joel from The Last of Us is a pretty heavy stereotype of a southern Nascar dad. A friend of mine told me after he played ME2 that he liked that Jacob didn't feel like the typical stereotype of a black guy in most games.

I understand the DA2 suckage. The game was very repetitive in environments and the enemy spawning was ridiculous. But the general Bioware hate every time there's a another gay character is really old. Bioware's marketing team didn't get up on a podium with a microphone at 4th of July and announce that "Hey! We have a gay character!" It was put in the character's bio and a journalist specifically asked about it. And how has the writing changed since they've added these types of characters and to what other games are we comparing the writing?

Thrasher · July 7, 2014

Well, in the last ten years, the most interesting thing about Bio ware games has been the interactions between NPCs, themselves, and the PC. Not saying much though.

So this is why NPC sexuality is obviously of keen interest to sex starved gaming journalists?

I'd prefer that sex was left out of all the games, but that wouldn't be very realistic for "deep" character development. I find it best to just roll with it, and ignore the inanity when it surfaces.

azarhal · July 8, 2014

purpleblob said:
Have you played DA2 with Anders in your party?? He's in your face most of the time and almost forced upon player….

err, what?

He only once go all "dude/dudette I fell in love with you at first sight" and that is after his quest to recruit him in act 1. It might be a bit "soon" in term of showing attraction, but nothing force you to accept his offer. The little "heartbreak" icon is right there to turn him off forever.

purpleblob · July 8, 2014

I remember everytime I talk to Anders (or other romance options in DA2), out of 4 or 5 dialogue options 2 or 3 of them had heart emoticon i.e. more than half of the responses were forcing players to flirt. As you mentioned, they also flirt with you rather early in the game (we just met?) and not-so-eloquently either (very blunt). What's more annoying is, if you try to avoid getting "rival" points by choosing peaceful option, still counts as you are still interested… no, I'm just trying to be a friend and reject him eloquently. Nope. No luck.

@Sidion:

Yes, and for every Tali, Jack, Liara etc, you get some hollow, only-for-shallow-romance-filler characters like Diana, Traynor, Kelly etc.

You don't think they are stereotype? I disagree. As much as I loved some characters created by Bioware, they are all more or less clones (with few modifications) of their previous games. To give a few examples:

Anomen = Carth = Kaidan (the whiny guys with dark past, female PC helps to mend)
Aribeth = Bastilla (the *sexy* girls who may fall into dark side)
Alistair = Varric (without romance option) = Garrus (the wishy, washy types with easy to get along personality)

You haven't heard of people complaining about straight romances? A lot of Watchers here have been complaining about romance in general, regardless of the NPCs "preferences".

wolfgrimdark · July 8, 2014

Sidion said:
It's difficult for me to relate then I guess. I've been dealing with straight flirting and romances in games for a couple decades where most times I had no choice but to sit through the awkwardness. From my perspective Bioware games are the first time where I don't have to sit through straight romances and flirting. No awkward flirting from Miranda, Jack, Liara, etc. Unless I actually make a dialogue decision to see that. Whereas in other games these are usually forced on the player.

And not sure how my original post was misdirected or any more a rant than many of the other posts on this topic. Nor was it directed at a specific posts but a general sentiment from a few posts. I've been reading RPGWatch for a few years now just for the news. But this post I definitely had to comment on considering the vast pile of games over multiple decades that have straight romance in them, including the Witcher series. Yet I have not heard one complaint on any forums for years about the straight sexuality and story romance there. You also don't hear many complaints in RPG forums about Witchers bad voice acting or many other things (although I like their combat).

In terms of writing when I look at the text of Bioware characters dialogue there is depth and interesting concepts there that many other RPGs lack. Characters like Liara, Jack, Javik, Tali, and on and on have some deep (DEEP) conversations and character motivations that are relevant to the story. It's very hard to find more than superficial and old-reused ideas in most other games. So it makes me want to question what writing someone is comparing Bioware's too when they say it's awful writing.

About gay characters or minority characters feeling to some people like they're being forced in… How should a gay character that's part of the group be presented so that they are equal to the other characters in backstory but not "forced in"? In Mass Effect if Jacob or Wrex were gay would they feel forced because Jacob has a significant other in ME3 and Wrex talks more than once about sex? How limited in their dialogue topics does a gay character have to be so they don't seem "forced in" by some people? Personally I didn't get the sense that any of the characters felt forced. Maybe if there was a big push for more Chinese characters in RPGs. And I didn't live around many Chinese people. And I'm playing ME4 next year and suddenly there's an asian-appearing companion then I can see feeling that the character was forced in. But if you are a Chinese player or live in a multicultural area then I think the chances of it feeling forced in are a lot lower. Instead the game probably feels more inviting and believable to you. Of course there will always be exceptions, e.g. some people who are gay that have a problem with a specific gay character.

On stereotypes Kaidan and Cortez were some of the least stereotypical gay characters in a long time. Kaidan's vocal cords sounds like he eats gravel for breakfast, constantly wears armor, and trains students in combat biotics. Cortez is a sports fan, hangs out with Vega, and tinkers with ships and shuttles in his spare time. They're a little bit tougher than Joker and Thane for example. I would have actually expected Thane to be the stereotypical gay rogue/thief. Although there's nothing wrong with a character being stereotypical. Joel from The Last of Us is a pretty heavy stereotype of a southern Nascar dad. A friend of mine told me after he played ME2 that he liked that Jacob didn't feel like the typical stereotype of a black guy in most games.

I understand the DA2 suckage. The game was very repetitive in environments and the enemy spawning was ridiculous. But the general Bioware hate every time there's a another gay character is really old. Bioware's marketing team didn't get up on a podium with a microphone at 4th of July and announce that "Hey! We have a gay character!" It was put in the character's bio and a journalist specifically asked about it. And how has the writing changed since they've added these types of characters and to what other games are we comparing the writing?

I have avoided posting in this thread as it is always the same. It is hard for some people to see outside of their box when they are the majority. Some understand it but most take so much of what is in games (and life) for granted they don't even know it is there to begin with - because it is as common as breathing or the sun coming up. Some people are open-minded or cognizant enough to understand but many don't listen and prefer to hold onto their prejudices.

Still I broke down and commented as your post was very well written and worth recognizing as it points out some of the hypocrisy you will see on gaming forums all over the place in regards to this issue.

All that being said I have been here a long time and overall most of the people are pretty decent around here (minus a few of course) even if I think many don't really understand the issue.

Sidion · July 8, 2014

wolfgrimdark said:
I have avoided posting in this thread as it is always the same. It is hard for some people to see outside of their box when they are the majority. Some understand it but most take so much of what is in games (and life) for granted they don't even know it is there to begin with - because it is as common as breathing or the sun coming up. Some people are open-minded or cognizant enough to understand but many don't listen and prefer to hold onto their prejudices.

Still I broke down and commented as your post was very well written and worth recognizing as it points out some of the hypocrisy you will see on gaming forums all over the place in regards to this issue.

All that being said I have been here a long time and overall most of the people are pretty decent around here (minus a few of course) even if I think many don't really understand the issue.

Thanks Wolfgrimdark. Maybe everyone could switch brains and bodies for a day so we can get a full sense of what each others experiences are.

@Purpleblog Not sure those are clones. They seem more like character archetypes. When you look at all the books in the vampire genre over the past 20 years there are very standard archetypes of different types of vampires. The stoic one, the brooding one, the pretty one, etc. Star Trek's different tv series have character archetypes. Star Wars. Comic book character teams. Bioware does the same thing. It seems like to me these archetypes are used because they are popular with a lot of people. All the way back to the Greeks and their theatre.

Other examples in Bioware lore:
Leliana is kind of similar to Liara. Her cameo in DA2 was giving off strong Liara vibes which will probably continue in DA3 when she rejoins the party.

Aveline is similar to Jaheria from BG1/2. They're both the strong female characters, deeper voices, moral compass of the party.

But you could say the same about Captain Picard and Professor X, or Dumbledore and Gandalf. Most people are just comfortable with archetypes. I don't know if it means they're clones though.

And I don't remember groups of people complaining about KotOR's romances. More posts started to appear when same-gender romance options were included in Dragon Age. Even slightly before that when Juhani was a minor option for a female same-gender romance in KotOR2 I don't remember seeing any posts. And definitely not the amount there are now.

JDR13 · July 8, 2014

Sidion said:
And I don't remember groups of people complaining about KotOR's romances. More posts started to appear when same-gender romance options were included in Dragon Age. Even slightly before that when Juhani was a minor option for a female same-gender romance in KotOR2 I don't remember seeing any posts. And definitely not the amount there are now.

I don't think that has as much to do with the romances being same-gender as much as it's about getting sick of romances in general.

Damian · July 8, 2014

I agree i am getting sick of romances. They bore me endless. Too many JRPG's with the romance story too, I really am not interested.

Jaz · July 8, 2014

For me alone, they could include romances in pretty much every game (including Pong and Tetris). While I generally don't like romances in movies, I can't get enough of the stuff in games: The more, the merrier! Romanceable NPCs? Make them all romanceable, including the cheese merchant and the beggar at the corner! And I really, really don't care about their sexual orientation.

Thorwyn99 · July 8, 2014

Sidion said:
About gay characters or minority characters feeling to some people like they're being forced in… How should a gay character that's part of the group be presented so that they are equal to the other characters in backstory but not "forced in"? In Mass Effect if Jacob or Wrex were gay would they feel forced because Jacob has a significant other in ME3 and Wrex talks more than once about sex? How limited in their dialogue topics does a gay character have to be so they don't seem "forced in" by some people? Personally I didn't get the sense that any of the characters felt forced. Maybe if there was a big push for more Chinese characters in RPGs. And I didn't live around many Chinese people. And I'm playing ME4 next year and suddenly there's an asian-appearing companion then I can see feeling that the character was forced in. But if you are a Chinese player or live in a multicultural area then I think the chances of it feeling forced in are a lot lower. Instead the game probably feels more inviting and believable to you. Of course there will always be exceptions, e.g. some people who are gay that have a problem with a specific gay character.

On stereotypes Kaidan and Cortez were some of the least stereotypical gay characters in a long time. Kaidan's vocal cords sounds like he eats gravel for breakfast, constantly wears armor, and trains students in combat biotics. Cortez is a sports fan, hangs out with Vega, and tinkers with ships and shuttles in his spare time. They're a little bit tougher than Joker and Thane for example. I would have actually expected Thane to be the stereotypical gay rogue/thief. Although there's nothing wrong with a character being stereotypical. Joel from The Last of Us is a pretty heavy stereotype of a southern Nascar dad. A friend of mine told me after he played ME2 that he liked that Jacob didn't feel like the typical stereotype of a black guy in most games.

I agree Cortez gets better later on, his introduction is pretty bad though and he does fit the "softy whiny" stereotype.
Maybe I'm biased with him because i found his introduction so horrible, gay or not after that show my first reaction was, you don't belong on my ship.
As for gay option I'd have prefered Vega, just because he fits the straight masculinity stereotype so well

.

As far as I've seen Samantha is extremely tagged on though, she's just there for the token lesbian(Although it seems more aimed at young teenagers

).

Added to the whole feels tagged on thing is that only the 2 pure homosexual options basically wave their "Hello I will be your lesbian/gay romance option for this game" at you in their very introduction.

Gay characters should be introduced the same way any other character is, there's no need to have a special emphasize on the I'm gay part.
I would much rather like to have some character you could never tell he's gay till during some later game dialogue it gets casually revealed.
It would go much further ways to show that the average gay gmale isn't different than the average straight male

(or woman for that matter).

And Kaidan falls into the same whiny character, I wonder if he really got made bi for fan request or if he always was planned to be gay but it wasn't feasible back in the time of ME1.
Remember the Liara outrage ?

I basically ignored romances in Kotor and the last fond memory i have of romances in Bioware games is BG2.
But that was in my teens so the glasses might really be rose coloured.
I just felt it hard to ignore them in the DA and ME games with the emphasize Bioware seems to put on them.
(Not matter if you can completely ignore them in game they do come up and you have to say no, it also feels half of the time Bioware is talking about their games it involves the romance options.)

I was somewhat ok with the Liara romance in ME1, ME2 seemed ok since i stuck with Liara and i kinda liked her DLC, ME3 was meh for me even though i stuck with the Liara one.
Any romance in DA1 felt arkward and in DA2 they were straight out horrible.
So no worries i find the romances generally meh, Gay or not lol.

I'm able to learn though, should i play DA:I i will stay as far away as i can from any romance and I hope no npc of either swinging will initiate any kind of romance talk with me.

DArtagnan · July 8, 2014

Deep, deep characters in Mass Effect? Hmm, I guess I haven't been paying attention.

I certainly missed those.

While I certainly agree good or interesting writing in games is extremely rare, it actually does exist - and if Bioware games have it, then it's simply not my kind of good or interesting writing.

Except, that's not true - I actually loved the background lore in both Mass Effect and Dragon Age. It's the NPC dialogue that I'm not a fan of, though I liked Dragon Age more than Mass Effect for that.

But they do have a tendency to "modernize" in a very cringe-worthy way when writing for fantasy settings. I guess if you're able to get past that, it's no big deal - but I think it's terrible.

As for the romances, as I said, they'd be fine if they were written well and the characters didn't shove their edgy profiles and sexuality in your face. Forced romantic interactions or not, it still doesn't help to parade that crap around. Well, not in my world - anyway.

Morrandir · July 8, 2014

DArtagnan said:
Deep, deep characters in Mass Effect? Hmm, I guess I haven't been paying attention.

Well, I don't know either if I'd call them "deep, deep". But in fact there are some characters which for me were really interesting:

Ashley: tough soldier vs. family person
Liara: development from a somewhat naive scientist to the Shadow Broker
Tali: cute girl vs. mechanical genius. And (although it's actually more a general) Quarian thing) it always intrigued me to never see her face. Additionally the Quarian society structure and history, which I've learned from her, is interesting.
Wrex: Besides being a simplistic badass warrior, he really cares for the future of his people and makes plans for its future.
Thane: tough assassin vs. spiritual person
Jack: In the order and a tidiness of soldier's world, Jack is pure Chaos. I liked that contradiction.
Miranda: Well, of course Dat Ass is in the game for obvious reasons. But I liked the backview… err… background that she was genetically engineered to be the perfect human. That's qzute a thing imho. Also the struggle of being loyal to Cerberus or Shepard was interesting.
Mordin: A genius alien scientist that's starts to sing in his lab with an excellent voice, speaks damns fast, was responsible for the Genophage and in the end sacrifices himself to cure it, regretting not being able to run tests on seashells. That's just great imho.

DArtagnan · July 8, 2014

I found most of those stereotypical and obnoxiously in-your-face with their profiles.

I'd say Tali is the most balanced of the bunch, and one of the few that were actually pretty interesting. The whole Flotilla concept was kinda cool as well.

The worst examples would be Jack, Thane, Mordin and Wrex. All of them really bad in a trying-too-hard-to-make-an-impression kind of way. I particularly disliked Thane and Jack. Thane because of the way his "duality" was delivered through cringe-worthy "shifts" when speaking - and Jack because she was an extreme example of an already pretty extreme ensemble.

But that's what Bioware does, and that's ok. A lot of people like extreme characters - and a lot of people love a show like Game of Thrones, which suffers from similar problems - if you ask me.

I tend to prefer a mixture of profiles, with the extremes being the minority. I really like plausible characters that you can explore at your own pace, rather than have their personas shoved down your throat in the very first scene with them.

Also, I'm not a huge fan of being essentially a superhero with other superheroes for party-members. I like having the option of staying neutral - and I like having my own reasons for doing stuff.

Bioware have always been clear about the power-fantasy - and how they believe all players want to be the hero. They're probably right for the most part, and especially where young gamers are concerned. It's fun being the center of attention all the time - and it's not necessarily inappropriate for a computer game. I just think it could be handled with more subtlety and naunced writing.

I like the writing in the Gothics, the Witchers and so on.

Recently, I've become a fan of the writing in Shadowrun Returns - because it managed to create a believable setting without a lot of visual trickery, simply through smart writing.

I don't know. It's down to personal preferences as usual.

Morrandir · July 8, 2014

Yeah, I can concur. As you say it's a matter of personal taste.

DArtagnan said:
I really like plausible characters that you can explore at your own pace, rather than have their personas shoved down your throat in the very first scene with them.

I may be wrong here as I always tried to explore the characters quickly, but I think it's possible to explore at your own pace? I mean, it's not that the guys come to the captains cabin and tell their biography to Shepard. You almost always needed to take initiative, go to them and ask them yourself.

DArtagnan · July 8, 2014

Morrandir said:
Yeah, I can concur. As you say it's a matter of personal taste.

I may be wrong here as I always tried to explore the characters quickly, but I think it's possible to explore at your own pace? I mean, it's not that the guys come to the captains cabin and tell their biography to Shepard. You almost always needed to take initiative, go to them and ask them yourself.

That's not what I meant, I meant that there should be more lowkey and down-to-earth characters - and that their way of standing out doesn't need to stand out immediately.

Most of the Bioware characters reveal their nature during the very first encounter - and they almost all have extreme natures, or some terrible psychological past full of overly dramatic mistakes or experiences.

I'm fine with the occasional extreme, and they can be highly amusing. But having the majority of characters have some obvious dark secret and edgy behavior is a turn-off.

But it's very much about your tolerance and sensitivity towards these things. I have the same reaction with the majority of US TV shows, for instance - all of which need to "sell" in the pilot and the first episodes. So, it's only natural that they'd shoot their load immediately, leaving little for later seasons.

Not really my style

azarhal · July 8, 2014

Sidion said:
Leliana is kind of similar to Liara. Her cameo in DA2 was giving off strong Liara vibes which will probably continue in DA3 when she rejoins the party.

Leliana doesn't "rejoins the party" in DAI, she's not a companion.

Her cameo in DA2 was about something that is related to DAI anyway. The entire interrogation has more to do with DAI than DA2 actually.

Sidion · July 8, 2014

DArtagnan said:
I found most of those stereotypical and obnoxiously in-your-face with their profiles.

I'd say Tali is the most balanced of the bunch, and one of the few that were actually pretty interesting. The whole Flotilla concept was kinda cool as well.

The worst examples would be Jack, Thane, Mordin and Wrex. All of them really bad in a trying-too-hard-to-make-an-impression kind of way. […]

I'm kind of the opposite. I loved the adrenaline factor of Jack and wondering if I was going to have to physically fight her over some argument. She reminds me of people I've known. Liara's age of 106 years kind of makes the player wonder what she'll reveal next about her past or history. And her research is always exciting or her role as the Shadow Broker collecting information. Miranda has her whole drama with being a former Cerberus operative, genetically modified, and personally managed the project that resurrected the player. Wrex, Garrus, Joker. They all are really "out there".

Tali, Jacob, and Kaidan seemed really normal though. Depending on the scene they either made me feel really grounded or really sleepy. If Tali, Kaidan, or Jacob are a romantic interest it does add some punch to the character but otherwise they're very down-to-earth.

I think what Mass Effect and Game of Thrones (the tv show) share in common is introducing characters in a limited amount of time but also making them memorable.

@Thorwyn99 All companion characters are whiny though aren't they? Vega is whiny about a lot of player decisions and getting into an elite combat unit, Wrex is whiny about some things, Tali is whiny about some things, Edi is whiny about the whole "what does it mean to be human" stuff, Joker is whiny about Edi, Garrus is whiny about his planet being attacked, Jack is whiny about Cerberus, Mordin is whiny about the Genophage. Tali is very whiny about the migrant fleet. Everyone is whiny about something. Cortez and Kaidan are similar, they are whiny about certain things that are important to them.

@Morrandir Some of the conversations with Liara, Mordin, and Javik were really well done. It was stuff you don't usually get to see in video games. The scenes where Shepard is in his quarters and struggling to deal with the weight of the war and Liara comes in to talk. That was really good. The scene near the very end where you get to talk with Liara one last time, although not too intellectually deep, was also well done. Mordin's discussions about what the genophage means to the galaxy and his struggle with trying to weigh the safety of species living near the Krogans with the wrongness of the genophage are very cool. Javik's memory of his civilization, dealing with being a sole survivor, his ideas about the approaching reapers and this cycle, and what happens when you tell him to touch the memory shard are kinda deep. The whole Legion vs Tali decision and everything leading up to it was also kinda deep, involving trust, loyalty, keeping an oath, politics, questions about whether machines are sentient.

It's not just sentimentality though. For me it's the combination of some really interesting nerdy ideas and decisions that are difficult to make that gives it some complexity. And I wish more video games had that mix. Beyond: Two Souls and The Last of Us definitely had their share of the "deep".

Wow it's kinda sad Leliana won't be part of the group in DA:I. I definitely thought she was.

DArtagnan · July 8, 2014

Tali, Jacob, and Kaidan seemed really normal though. Depending on the scene they either made me feel really grounded or really sleepy. If Tali, Kaidan, or Jacob are a romantic interest it does add some punch to the character but otherwise they're very down-to-earth.

Incidentally, those are the ones I like the most - even if none of them were particularly memorable to me.

But it's nice to know that Bioware characters have a powerful effect on some people. They would, I suppose, given the high praise it's received in general.

Bioware is pretty popular with the mainstream still, I think. It's only around here we're a bit grumpy

Dragon Age: Inquisition - On Critics of Dorian

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