RPG Codex - Warren Spector Interview

Diablo can barely be called a CRPG. It's an action rogue-like game. Cancer for the CRPG genre IMHO.
 
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Infinitron said:
Roq, it's interesting that you mention Diablo. Apparently, at least some members of the Diablo team thought they were also helping to bring back RPGs: http://www.gamebanshee.com/news/112369-the-origin-of-diablo.html
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I didn't mind Diablo and it's successors, such as say Van Helsing, have some appeal too, for a while. But, I can't help thinking that from a marketing POV, they are just a quicker, more economical, formula to directly stimulate the pleasure/reward receptors in the gamer brain, without the necessity of making more complex, branching gameplay elements or employing a decent writer. In that respect they are sort of the gaming equivalent of Dan Brown.
 
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Well, in any case, Diablo isn't what "killed" RPGs in the mid-90s. The decline had already set in by 1994; Diablo was released in late 1996.

I'm actually pretty surprised by how little effect Diablo had on the "true" CRPGs that came after it. There were very few CRPGs in the late 90s with "click to attack"-style combat, for instance.
 
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Some real good CRPGs were released in the mid 90s:

1995 Albion -> one of my all time favourites
1996 Daggerfall
1994 Dark Sun
1994 Jagged Alliance
1994 Eye of the Beholder
1994 MM3
1994 Star Trail
1995 MM4&5
...

the decline begins with Diablo
 
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HiddenX said:
Some real good CRPGs were released in the mid 90s:

1995 Albion -> one of my all time favourites
1996 Daggerfall
1994 Dark Sun
1994 Jagged Alliance
1994 Eye of the Beholder
1994 MM3
1994 Star Trail
1995 MM4&5
…

the decline begins with Diablo
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Some of your dates are off. Eye of the Beholder was released in 1991. Might & Magic 3, 4, 5 were released in 1991, 1992 and 1993 respectively. Dark Sun: Shattered Lands was released in 1993.

1994 still had some RPGs (that didn't sell very well), 1996 had the beginnings of incline with Daggerfall, but overall the mid-90s were a really bad time for RPGs.
 
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Fixed List (sorry, I looked at non PC releases first):

Some real good CRPGs were released in the mid 90s:

1995 Albion -> one of my all time favourites
1996 Daggerfall
1994 Dark Sun: Wake the Ravager
1994 Jagged Alliance
1994 Star Trail
1994 MM4 & 5 (World of Xeen release)
 
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Roq said:
Maybe it was the 3 D's: Doom, Diablo, Dune 2 (RTS) that made the game industry think that the more ponderous RPG formats were being superseded. Action speaks louder than words, so they say :).
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That's what I had heard over the years also, in particular Diablo.

But in conjunction with action it was also the dollars that Diablo reaped in that had a huge voice.

nice article over there at the Codex
 
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Infinitron said:
That's correct. By the time of Baldur's Gate, RPGs had managed to overcome the technology gap Warren mentioned. But by then, oldschool designers like him had abandoned the genre and it was up to a new generation of talent - the three B's (Black Isle, BioWare, Bethesda) - to revitalize it.
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Hmm… can you name some RPG's from the late 90's that could stand toe-to-toe with AAA titles of their time, technologically? Certainly not Black Isle - isometric 2D was NOT something that grabbed people.
 
Sacred_Path said:
Hmm… can you name some RPG's from the late 90's that could stand toe-to-toe with AAA titles of their time, technologically? Certainly not Black Isle - isometric 2D was NOT something that grabbed people.
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They didn't need to stand toe-to-toe. They just needed to look good enough.

(And since we're talking about Diablo, remember that it was just as isometric 2D as any "true" RPG. Didn't hurt Blizzard!)
 
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Dajjer said:
That's what I had heard over the years also, in particular Diablo.
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You guys don't need to guess - Warren said himself what killed RPGs in the mid-90s:

Warren Spector said:
Everyone was jumping on the CD craze – it was all cinematic games and high-end graphics puzzle games
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Diablo only came years later and had nothing to do with this.
 
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Sacred_Path said:
My guess is that a genre (i.e. traditional RPG) without any titles that impress people technologically has an image problem.
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I think that was more true in the 90s than it is today, when technology is more or less at a standstill except for the odd Crysis showboating.

Even in the 90s, there were genres that thrived without looking so good. For example, real time strategy games. Their secret? Impressive-looking cinematic cutscenes between levels. How many copies of Command & Conquer were sold because a real live dude gave you your mission briefings, I wonder?

And of course, RPGs had such cutscenes too, although today they come across as gratuitous and silly.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JlWgF_x9ooI

Still, I don't think that can entirely explain the popularity of these games.
 
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Infinitron said:
Even in the 90s, there were genres that thrived without looking so good.
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That's the old problem that traditional RPG's try to be everything, I guess.

"If people are tired of fantasy clichés, why do they buy Diablo?"

"If people are put off by mediocre graphics, why do they buy indie games?"

"If people don't want walls of text, why do they... read?"

All the parameteres that determine when a game is a traditional RPG are tailored to the tastes of a niche group. Who complain about their favorite genre being niche.

For example, real time strategy games. Their secret? Impressive-looking cinematic cutscenes between levels. How many copies of Command & Conquer were sold because a real live dude gave you your mission briefings, I wonder?

And of course, RPGs had such cutscenes too, although today they come across as gratuitous and silly.
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See above. ;)
 
Infinitron said:
I don't think many people complain about that. What they do complain about is that even their humble niche needs aren't being met.
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If that was true, the recent wave of kickstarters should have placated everyone. I'm not seeing that.
 
Sacred_Path said:
If that was true, the recent wave of kickstarters should have placated everyone. I'm not seeing that.
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Hmmm, I'm not sure what "everyone" you're referring to. Who is it that has yet to be placated and why?

In any case, the Kickstarter games aren't actually out yet.
 
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Infinitron said:
Hmmm, I'm not sure what "everyone" you're referring to. Who is it that has yet to be placated and why?

In any case, the Kickstarter games aren't actually out yet.
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Just my general impression, both here and at the Codex. Are people content with the state of the genre right now? Doesn't seem like that to me.

Yes most of them aren't out, it's just that I don't expect them to lay this issue at rest, no matter how good they are. Like I said, since the RPG is a genre that tries to be many things at once, people expect many things at once. And if the kickstarted titles don't manage to live up to that, I expect the same rhetoric as usual (an industry of cash grabs etc.)
 
Sacred_Path said:
Just my general impression, both here and at the Codex. Are people content with the state of the genre right now? Doesn't seem like that to me.
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There's never going to be a time where everyone is content with the state of any given genre. Everyone has different tastes, and there's always going to be an outspoken group of people bitching about something even if they're the minority.
 
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JDR13 said:
There's never going to be a time where everyone is content with the state of any given genre. Everyone has different tastes, and there's always going to be an outspoken group of people bitching about something even if they're the minority.
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My impression also isn't that there's a silent majority who both likes traditional RPG's and is content with their place in the industry right now.
 
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