The Let's Rant and Rave about the UN Thread

Not how it reads to me at all, but OK I guess. That's sanctioning as in endorsement, rather than sanctioning as in penalizing. Upon further review, I probably should have said "action via multinational diplomacy under the UN brand".

Diet, exercise, plus bulimia is better for weight loss than diet and exercise alone, too. Sometimes less options is a good thing, ya know.

I do intend to take a stab at your Syria question, though. It probably won't be from work, though. I'll actually have to concentrate on that one.

Rithrandil said:

If I'm correct, PJ, what you're arguing is that you are not completely in love with the United Nations, but you don't think there is a viable alternative to what it does. If that's the case, I completely agree with you. If there was some alternative to the UN that worked better, I'd be all for it, whether it be some sort of awesome "LEAGUE OF DEMOCRACIES!" or ...I don't know, the Reformed United Nations. I keep saying, the UN has a lot of flaws, but it has a useful purpose if we use it correctly. These flaws should be addressed (for instance, Germany, Japan, and Brazil should be on the Security Council) but I don't want to just trahs the whole system unless we have something better lined up.

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I don't think anyone who really knows the UN is in love with it, especially those who've worked there, like any lare burecuracy it has its issues compounded by the complexity of governance - I think its difficult for people who haven't spent much time in an internaitonal organisation to really appreciate how important culture can be either. That said I also think that if you tried to build a global organisation to do the same things the UN does and had any sort of inclusivity you'd end up with something that looked very similar anyway - less inclusivity and you get less legitimacy.

Personally I think DTE's proposals would end up looking something like the Concert of Europe which did a pretty good job until the system was destabilised (I seem to remember the Americans weren't too keen on it though?). As far as I'm concerned the current system has had one success dealing with systemic instability coping with the colapse of the USSR and two major open questions over failed states and the rise of China.

For what its worth I'd add India to the Security council too (and maybe merge the UK and France's, give it to Europe and let them sort out their policy through the EU institutions).

V7 said:

I don't think anyone who really knows the UN is in love with it, especially those who've worked there, like any lare burecuracy it has its issues compounded by the complexity of governance - I think its difficult for people who haven't spent much time in an internaitonal organisation to really appreciate how important culture can be either. That said I also think that if you tried to build a global organisation to do the same things the UN does and had any sort of inclusivity you'd end up with something that looked very similar anyway - less inclusivity and you get less legitimacy.

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Agreed. My personal experience is limited to Model UN - and I can see how hard it was to get anything done then and to get an inside look at the culture inside the organization. Besides, I think if we tried to make our own "new thing" and kick out countries we didn't like we'd pretty much have...what, NATO + Australia + New Zealand + Mexico + Japan + South Korea + maybe India?

V7 said:

Personally I think DTE's proposals would end up looking something like the Concert of Europe which did a pretty good job until the system was destabilised (I seem to remember the Americans weren't too keen on it though?). As far as I'm concerned the current system has had one success dealing with systemic instability coping with the colapse of the USSR and two major open questions over failed states and the rise of China.

For what its worth I'd add India to the Security council too (and maybe merge the UK and France's, give it to Europe and let them sort out their policy through the EU institutions).

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I also agree. But you got to remember when it comes to the Concert of Europe/Balance of Power, that the "realist vs. idealist" thing has switched oceans. Even if you dislike Neocons, I'd suggest taking a glance through "Of Paradise and Power" by Keegan. It's only like 120 pages and it does make a pretty convincing argument that Europe was a realist "do what we have to" group of countries when it had the power to be that way and the U.S. was a "let's all get along and leave each other alone" idealist country when it didn't have the power to do anything. These attitudes have switched since the World Wars.

And I agree with you about the whole "EU getting one vote, India getting one too" thing. The countries that were the most powerful at the end of WW2 aren't...necessarily the same. Japan has, what, the second strongest economy now? And so on. The UN needs reform!

Rithrandil said:

Agreed. My personal experience is limited to Model UN - and I can see how hard it was to get anything done then and to get an inside look at the culture inside the organization.

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I assume the Model UN was all American schools? I wasn't thinking so much about the orginasitional culture as the difficulty of agreement and government when you're dealinng with several hundred different national cultures - it sounds absurd but things as simple as the order of speekers can have a substantial effect on what happens in a meeting.

Just edit to add - his thesis that America is behaving like a great power also ignores that a great deal of international law was actually developed by the Concert

Rithrandil said:

I also agree. But you got to remember when it comes to the Concert of Europe/Balance of Power, that the "realist vs. idealist" thing has switched oceans. Even if you dislike Neocons, I'd suggest taking a glance through "Of Paradise and Power" by Keegan. It's only like 120 pages and it does make a pretty convincing argument that Europe was a realist "do what we have to" group of countries when it had the power to be that way and the U.S. was a "let's all get along and leave each other alone" idealist country when it didn't have the power to do anything. These attitudes have switched since the World Wars.

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I've read it, personally I think he misses the reality to make a nice case, France and the UK are still very realist - the big change has been Germany and the relitive influence of smaller countries as a result of the current internaitonal system and EU, and American FP also has a long history of swinging back and forth between realism and liberal internationalism - he also ignores the middle powers like Australia and Canada.

V7 said:

I assume the Model UN was all American schools? I wasn't thinking so much about the orginasitional culture as the difficulty of agreement and government when you're dealinng with several hundred different national cultures - it sounds absurd but things as simple as the order of speekers can have a substantial effect on what happens in a meeting.

Just edit to add - his thesis that America is behaving like a great power also ignores that a great deal of international law was actually developed by the Concert

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Nope, there were a lot of foreigners too. I think around half. There were kids from Iraq or Afghanistan I believe, too.

V7 said:

I've read it, personally I think he misses the reality to make a nice case, France and the UK are still very realist - the big change has been Germany and the relitive influence of smaller countries as a result of the current internaitonal system and EU, and American FP also has a long history of swinging back and forth between realism and liberal internationalism - he also ignores the middle powers like Australia and Canada.

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Fair enough.

Since we all like to bash the UN some, here's a funny video from The Onion:

http://www.theonion.com/content/video/ambassador_stages_coup_at_un

The last few seconds are NSFW, but other than that it's clean.

That was really good. They always say truth is funnier than fiction.

Tense situation, very tense.

Several good ones on that page, Rith, including the Auto Warriors and eco-friendly torture techniques. Classic onion.